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In this episode Joel and Antonia talk about Plato’s allegory of the cave and determining if we are actually seeing reality for real.

In this podcast you’ll find:

  • The Matrix (1999)
  • The main character, Neo, is flowing through his life on autopilot and exploring the reality he is living in.
  • The Matrix hearkens back to Plato’s allegory of the cave.
  • We are humans existing in a cave looking at shadowy projections of the world outside the cave.
  • We assume the things we see on the cave’s wall are reality.
  • There is an entire reality we do not perceive in our everyday lives.
  • If only we could get out of our perceived reality and see reality for what it is, we could see what is going on in the world.
  • The Matrix plays with this concept.
  • What Neo thinks is reality isn’t reality.
  • Neo takes the red pill and goes down the rabbit hole.
  • If you saw that movie while in a religious paradigm, you might have seen it as the world’s ignorance of the value of God in their lives.
  • You may have perceived yourself as already out of Plato’s cave because of your faith.
  • Life changes though. We evolve.
  • The person we were 20 years ago looks naive compared to the person we are today
  • Now you likely consider yourself outside the cave.
  • Are you?
  • I thought I was out of the matrix before. Now I look back and see that I was more plugged into the matrix than at any other period of my life.
  • In the third movie, Neo starts having the same abilities in the real as he did the matrix, which makes us wonder if he isn’t still in the matrix.
  • So, are we out of the matrix? Or, are we still in the matrix?
  • Robert Anton Wilson: Belief agnostic
  • Belief Systems = BS
  • Can we ever really know we are out of the cave?
  • “If you don’t stand for something, you will fall for anything.”
  • How do you know you haven’t already fallen for something?
  • In Plato’s allegory of the cave, you have people shackled to seats, and there is a puppet show going on in front of them backlit by fire.
  • Like a movie theater
  • Our body responds to the images projected on the screen before us, even if we are aware that it isn’t reality.
  • Nobody gets to determine what reality is.
  • We don’t know what we are going to buy into. Stuff gets in, and we can’t help it.
  • No matter how much work you do, you’re still in the cave. It may be another cave, but it is still a cave.
  • There is always more to re-evaluate.
  • Anytime anybody introduces an idea to you, question the premise.
  • We are the ones creating the projections on the cave wall, so it may be impossible for us to get out of the cave.
  • As humans, we are always achieving and improving.
  • The Personal development world is no different.
  • It is human nature to compete and compare.
  • Some people believe we are human “beings” not human “Doings.”
  • But if you just “Be” you better hope for someone to support you
  • There is a tension point between resting into who we are and going on trajectories to something different
  • It is a natural bias for us to believe we have hit the acme
  • We aren’t ever at the top. There is always more coming down the pike.
  • Make peace with the fact that you aren’t at the acme of human evolution
  • Be content with where you are without losing your drive for progress
  • More certain = Less secure
  • Less certain = More secure
  • Try to zoom away from your perspective and analyze whether you know how things work
  • Sometimes we experience a smackdown and realize our viewpoint isn’t accurate
  • Attempt to clarify perspective without the trauma/pain triggering it.
  • Re-evaluate your reality frequently
  • Step 1 is being willing to question the premise of your beliefs in a moment when you’re not experiencing pain
  • When things start breaking down with a belief system, it isn’t always you. It may be the belief system that is falling short.
  • Ask: Why do I believe that?
  • We can’t rest into something else to craft our morality and ethics.
  • We can’t rely on an outer force to right the wrongs we commit.
  • There is no hero that is going to save you.
  • You aren’t a victim awaiting a savior.
  • Rest into yourself and be vigilant about your integrity and ethics
  • Don’t hand your power and responsibility over to a belief system.
  • You are fundamentally responsible for the things that happen or don’t happen, in your life.
  • We have to deal with the cleanup
  • When people hand themselves over to some authority, it fools them into believing that they don’t have to deal with the cleanup.
  • That’s not true. No one is going to clean it up for you.

In this episode Joel and Antonia talk about Plato's allegory of the cave and determining if we are actually seeing reality for real. #matrix #plato

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We want to hear from you. Leave your comments below…


  • Bruce
    • Bruce
    • June 28, 2017 at 11:37 am

    As long as you think “You” are a human being, a person becoming “Enlightened,” a conscious agent making “Choices,” then you are in the Cave of Identity, and its all about Ego.

    Consciousness is becoming aware of its own existence and realizing the Ego is just another arising within the content of itself.

    The entangled energy of Consciousness is One, and can be seen as that, by reflection of itself to itself, even though it appears as a multiplicity of elements within all the apparent separate, mind-body life forms.

    All this can be experienced by vision within, when Consciousness seeks out the deeper nature of itself by focusing its attention inwardly, toward the Source-Flow of arising energy, into the constantly changing, Present Moment.

    Until all this becomes clear enough to spark awakening Consciousness into a true interest in its inner nature, then the Mind-World of illusory appearances will captivate its attention into the constant, repetitive circular motion of identities, coming and going, being “held onto” and being “let go of,” until the illusion of egocentric agency is seen for what it is: merely a necessary phase as evolution continuously germinates new levels of Truth.

    Love is the revelation of the nature of Consciousness to itself.

  • Stephane Dorotich
    • Stephane Dorotich
    • June 17, 2017 at 8:24 pm

    A single comment is insufficient to communicate everything I’d like to say to you two.

    First off. Your work of developing and propagating Social Technologies and developing a language around it is amazing. I am so thankful for what you are working toward.

    Second. Since discovering your podcast a few months ago, I have gone through a spurt of growth. Simply stated, you have given me new perspectives through which to acknowledge, accept, and forgive my behaviours and attitudes, which has enabled me to create a new state of being for myself.

    What stood out for me from this podcast was Antonia’s description of the tension between being a “Human Being” and a “Human Doing”, I think this is a beautiful perspective. This is my present growth space. I have previously made myself miserable by constantly holding the belief that I must always be growing. Even when spending time with friends, I would have a background dialogue running saying “I should be doing something else”, even though most of the time I have no idea what that “something else” is.

    I am of the opinion that most people (myself included) spend a good chunk of their lives neither being a “Humam Being” nor a “Human Doing”, but rather a Human thinking/aspiring/anxietying.

    My growth space this summer is allowing myself to be a Human Being.

    That said, I think the greatest satisfaction comes from the balance of those two states.

    As a 23 yr old, I am having challenges directing myself. I have some pretty far off dreams I would like to bring into reality, however, the path to them is by no means clear.

    I know this isn’t a clearly written question, but I was wondering if you have any thoughts on the tribulations of setting your course when you feel as if your agency, your employment, or your environment are out of alignment with your purpose.

    It is my perception that success is progressively realized. As far as I can tell, the two of you are already walking down the road you have chosen. But I imagine that the early days may have been marked by a lack of clarity, an uncertainty of direction, and a persistent question of “What do I do next?”

    I would be keen to hear of any insights you may have on the challenges of starting down your path.

    Thank you for your wisdom, insight, and generosity.


  • Candi
    • Candi
    • June 9, 2017 at 3:50 pm

    Hi there! As an INFP I really enjoyed this podcast. And in someways, it was pertinent to me because as an INFP, if I’m not careful, I can project unto reality whatever it is I’m feeling internally without having all the information. That being said, I have to say that I think may I need some clarification on this Plato’s Caves allegory and your interpretation/conclusions because I’m not sure I can fully get behind what you’re saying.

    1) If we can’t know if we are “out of the cave”, how can we know if we’re at a higher level of a cave or if we’ve just walked into another cave? How can you assess personal development or evaluate progress without the ability to know what “reality” or “truth” is? Doesn’t there have to be a standard we are aiming for?

    2) If all worldviews or believe systems are a cave, could not the believe system that we can “try on belief systems” also be another cave?

    3) I actually do believe that “if you don’t stand for something, you will fall for anything”. And based on this podcast, I think you do believe in it as well. I say that because belief systems aren’t just conceptual ideas. At some point you have to act on them and interact with them. They have implications and consequences. At some point you have to choose and stand for a belief system. For the same reason, you guys chose to leave the religion of your youth to stand for something better. If the objective is not to stand for anything and you can “try on” anything, then all worldviews are equal and valid. Who are we then to judge the pacifist from the terrorist?

    So, I would agree with you that we have to question the premises of our worldview but for the purpose of discovering a singular and true reality. If not, then all worldviews are true which is logically impossible. And yes, I would agree that we will never have complete knowledge to know for sure if our worldview is true (no one can know everything about everything) but based on the evidence, we can make inferences to the best explanation of reality and make it a life long journey of evaluating that based on the new information we receive over time. I had more things to say but I didn’t want to overwhelm the comment section. I’d love to hear your thoughts on this!

  • Denzel Mensah
    • Denzel Mensah
    • June 4, 2017 at 8:15 pm

    This podcast was great! I have been pondering such thoughts for a while now and it has been very helpful to me! I even posted a whole YouTube video essentially saying the same thing from my own perspective.

    I am a devout Christian and I too once had a mindset that I was “out of the cave” as Antonia and Joel stated in the other podcast. However, in developing my Ni, reading more about other belief systems, studying apologetics (I recommend Ravi Zacharias, he is PHENOMENAL) and conversing with others of all beliefs, although I still FIRMLY believe in my own Christian beliefs wholeheartedly and I personally do see them as empirical truth, I can totally see other perspectives and argue from their side such as agnostic or even Satanism and understand how they also believe their ideology. I guess for Christianity, at least personally speaking, it all comes down to how well I can reason with others see at least WHY I believe in it but not coerce my beliefs nor belittle theirs as I would hope they would not do to mine. And I guess at the end of the day, this is what Christians call “Faith.” Knowing 100% with your heart, but being able to admit there is no way to know 100% from an objective standpoint (your brain).

    Thanks for this!

  • Ryan
    • Ryan
    • June 4, 2017 at 8:26 am

    Hey first I love your podcast. Your episode on INFj really help my wife understand who she is, and get out of a lot of toxic relationships that were draining her up or energy. So thank you for that. I had a personal question I feel that Antonia would help with it because I’m guessing you came from the same religion. I am currently a Jehovah’s Witness my exploration into other ways of thinking, has me realizing that me and my wife all right different developmental levels. How can I be supportive and not be a drain on her, while also being true to myself and continuing my own development? I feel stifled because I want to express my ideas to further my own thinking. I find it difficult to find a social group that will converse with my higher thinking. She’s not opposed to my ideas but I or my ideas can be draining. Any input that you can provide would be a great help. thank you for all that you do.

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