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In this episode, Joel and Antonia talk with Dr. Beatrice Chestnut about how the Enneagram has helped her grow personally.

In this podcast you’ll find:

    • Beatrice Chestnut is an Enneagram expert
    • She has been on the podcast before
    • Subtypes give more nuance to the Enneagram
    • Beatrice has authored two books:
    • We are deeply interested in personal growth
    • Some people use the Enneagram model for description only but it is really built for help along the self development path
    • MBTI started out with a more corporate purpose but if you go back far enough to Jung there is some self development aspects.
    • Stories are a great way to illustrate how to use these models for personal growth
    • Beatrice is going to share her story of personal growth using the Enneagram model
    • Beatrice’s journey into personal growth began after she learned the Enneagram
    • It woke her up to who she was.
    • She didn’t understand who she was at the time
    • She learned from David Daniels, M.D.
    • Helen Palmers book on Enneagram
    • Beatrice is an Enneagram 2.
    • The info stopped her in her tracks and shined a light on the things about herself she didn’t understand
    • She was extremely dependent on other people’s approval as an enneagram 2.
    • Helen Palmer says 2s are manipulative
    • Manipulation = moving things around behind the scenes to get things to work out the way you want
    • We see manipulation as bad but in reality it is just one more strategy
    • Our ego is important to help us survive as children but it is limiting when we reach adulthood.
    • Beatrice has worked with the Enneagram for 29 years
    • She is less anxious than she used to be. More peaceful. Happier.
    • The Enneagram is not a stand alone tool. It is a map that highlights your natural strengths and your blind spots.
    • We don’t know what we don’t know
    • Joel’s an Enneagram 6 in the fear triad
    • Initially things gets worse before they get better in personal growth
    • Talking about your anxiety and what makes you anxious makes you less anxious.
    • It helps us understand the sources of our anxiety and we build more compassion for ourselves
    • In search of the Miraculous
    • Existential anxiety awakening to the void
    • 2s lack a sense of self
    • Their attention goes outside of themselves
    • When your attention is focused in one place there’s somewhere it is not focused
    • Beatrice had No idea what she needed or how she was feeling
    • She was a shape shifter and had no idea who she was.
    • Sense of self is the sum total of how we feel from moment to moment
    • She didn’t feel free. She had a thousand strings tied from her to everyone else
    • She couldn’t move because if she moved she might disturb someone else
    • She couldn’t feel secure or confident in herself.
    • She had a lot of friends with this strategy which created a feeling of well being
    • She found some deep sadness within her and when she got reactions from others she realized her happiness was for the benefit of others.
    • Her benefit to the strategy was to make other people like her but she didn’t see the cost
    • “What are you feeling right now?”
    • It helped Beatrice fill in her consciousness around her own feelings
    • These emotions can be scary when you’re first exploring them.
    • “People don’t like angry people so I just won’t be angry.”
    • Eliminate unpleasant emotions.
    • Seeker at heart
    • Self Preservation 2s unconsciously stay young as a way to elicit care from others
    • Beatrice became a therapist as a way to use the Enneagram in her career because she really loved the model
    • She didn’t learn about subtypes until she meet Claudio Naranjo who is one of the seminal authors in the Enneagram movement
    • Subtypes was a revolutionary leap forward for her in the Enneagram model.
    • After learning she was 2 she worked on being authentic and getting in touch with her emotions.
    • After learning she was self-preservation 2, she discovered a basement in her self development territory she didn’t know existed.
    • She was repressing fear, mistrust, and ambivalence
    • She got defensive when she first learned about self preservation.
    • Self Preservations 2s are childlike
    • “When I stand next to you, I don’t think you’re going to protect me. I need to protect you.”
    • Beatrice: “There was an ocean of sadness at the core of my being.”
    • A lot of heart types feel anxious because of the depth of emotion lying underneath everything.
    • Anxiety = unknown territory that can destabilize your life and relationships
    • Always afraid someone was going to get mad at her.
    • Now she is very much in touch with her emotions and sees her connection to her heart as a strength.
    • Beatrice is an ENFP. Her path to growth is Introverted Feeling “Authenticity”
    • That is basically what she did in her path through the Enneagram and therapy.
    • One of the keys to using these models for growth is not allowing the initial ego response to avoid the truth.
    • Value the truth more than your ego’s need to protect itself against critical info.
    • “The truth shall set you free.”
    • Current growth project:
      • Owning her power and strength while also maintaining contact with humility.
    • Humility is the high side of Enneagram 2s.
    • It’s been a challenge for her to not make herself small and still feel grounded in the things she has to share.
    • Striking balance between knowing who she is and how she can help others without getting too unbalanced and fearful.
    • Keep an open mind as you learn new info with this model.
    • Defensiveness and ego can get in the way of learning who you are.
    • Be open to discomfort
    • Let in suffering.
    • Face your shadow.
    • Have a lot of compassion for yourself. Don’t get too critical of yourself.
    • If there is something you don’t like about what you are doing, there is a reason why.
    • Be willing to ask people for help.
    • Alone we can do nothing. We need to have friends on the growth path.
    • Take some of these principals and apply them in your own life.
    • Don’t let your ego get the better of you.
    • Don’t push away the things you don’t like.
    • “I’ll be critical of myself before anyone else can.”
    • Antonia had a story in her head that everything that failed in her life was related to her physical appearance.
    • Overly simplistic and shallow story.
    • The Complete Enneagram: 27 Paths to Greater Self-Knowledge
    • Sexual 3s can come across kind of shallow.
    • As long as you are attractive enough to attract a partner you are fine.
    • Antonia believed if she wasn’t attractive enough that meant death.
    • She knew the programming was bad but she didn’t have the ability to change the code.
    • Even if you’re not the most beautiful person on the planet, does this actually threaten your survival?
    • As an ENTP, Antonia has Extraverted Feeling as her tertiary.
    • She can absorb emotions but only among her intimates.
    • Anxiety is an unacceptable emotion to her and when Joel would go to anxiety she would flee.
    • That is part of his Enneagram journey. He needs something from her but her protectiveness keeps pushing him away.
    • Joel added anxiety to convince her of the importance of what he was trying to say, which only made things worse.
    • Enneagram is a great diagnostic tool and prescriptive.
    • If you have some persistent challenges and you can’t seem to beat them, use the Enneagram to help diagnose what your work is.
    • You need to want the truth more than you want the pain connected to the truth.
    • She doesn’t hazard guesses on people’s Enneagram type but she tries to hold her ideas loosely because it is way too easy to jump to the wrong conclusion about someone.
    • Everybody is the biggest expert on themselves.
    • There’s always overgeneralization on types.
    • Respect people’s boundaries.
    • Uranio Paes, MM

Want to Learn More From Beatrice? Check out:

Enneagram Roadmap

In this episode, Joel and Antonia talk with Dr. Beatrice Chestnut about how the Enneagram has helped her grow personally. #enneagram

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  • Alex
    • Alex
    • March 3, 2019 at 6:20 pm

    Wow, thanks for doing this episode! I hadn’t seen any enneagram resources that explained its pupose well (hadn’t looked very hard either). But after I read Antonia’s article about it on PH and looked into Beatrice’s resources more, I’m fascinated. I think it will be useful for me as a deeper look into my blind spots and weaknesses— like understanding WHY Fe is such a 3-year old, and WHY an introverted dominant-tertiary loop is a place of safety. I see the two models playing very well together.

    I was reading the description of type 5, and was a little put off by the idea of 5s having been neglected. I couldn’t think of any obvious sources of neglect, so I wasn’t sure how accurate that was to me. And then I remembered, like last week or something, how insistent I was that I didn’t know what to put for a ‘fun fact’ about myself on this promotional social media thing because “why would anyone care about this unless it’s related to my project content?” I say this all the time about social media and even about real-life people who are just beyond the close-friends circle- why would anyone care about what’s going on in my life? Like, holy crap, that’s such a statement of “I’ve gotten feedback that no one cares about me so I’m just not going to give it.” I still have no idea where that really comes from, but i’m excited to keep looking into the enneagram.

  • Linda
    • Linda
    • March 2, 2019 at 11:54 pm

    Sorry, I meant to include this in my initial comment above. I’m an INFP and an Enneagram 4 w/5 wing. Probably self preservation.

  • Linda
    • Linda
    • March 2, 2019 at 6:27 pm

    I have been trying to figure myself out since my mid-40s, which is over 20 years ago when I first learned about the MBTI. It’s never too late. We each have to find our teachers. I just started Merja’s course on Inner Parenting, and am using the Enneagram book, Deep Living, by Roxanne Howe-Murphy, as a companion.

    Joel and Antonia, you are real rock stars in how you present the MB. It is only through listening to your podcasts that I found the understanding and resonance that I have been seeking all these years. Thank you. And I appreciate how you partner and collaborate with people like Bea and Merja.

  • Judy
    • Judy
    • March 1, 2019 at 1:26 pm

    Very helpful podcast! I’d love another one with Beatrice that goes deeper into the nature of the subtype categories themselves. How did these subtype categories develop? What’s the history of their place within the Enneagram model? Why these three approaches rather than others?

    I am a certified Myers Briggs practitioner and find it important to emphasize to clients that the MBTI questionnaire is an assessment tool, not a test (it doesn’t quantitatively measure you against anyone else). The same is true for the Enneagram. These various “tests” help guide you to some possibilities, but both the MBTI and the Enneagram require you to do a lot of reflecting and exploration of your own behavior patterns before settling on a result. It’s not easy! That said, I found Beatrice’s book on the Enneagram and subtypes to be the absolute best resource for helping me comfortably own my type. I recommend it to people all the time.

    Finally, I’m curious to hear what you two and Beatrice would say about the way in which operating out of your inferior function while under stress (your 3-year-old is driving the car), also known as “being in the grip,” correlates (or not) to your Enneagram type when under stress.

  • Wisam
    • Wisam
    • March 1, 2019 at 1:10 am

    Thank you for the podcast. Please, could you recommend a good website for the enneagram test that is accurate?
    I took a test on a few websites and I get variation in my results. My tritype is supposedly 125 but then another test says I am a 9.
    Thank you!

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