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In this episode, Joel and Antonia chat with Enneagram experts Dr. Beatrice Chestnut and Uranio Paes about the spiritual uses of the Enneagram.

In this podcast you’ll find:

  • Enneagram Workshop with Beatrice Chestnut and Oranio Paes
  • Mayton Inn
  • The Way of the Symbol
  • Using the Enneagram symbol to deal with traumas energetically trapped inside of us
  • The circle is important
  • In the workshop, you begin the exercise by standing on your Enneagram number which has been placed on the floor
  • The arrow lines go back and access early traumas then move forward to get a glimpse of the future.
  • Joel is a 6. So he stood on the symbol at #6 then went back to 9 to shore up inner power then brought back to 6 and over to 3, which is his future.
  • Everyone was there for different reasons. Some had trauma trapped in their body, and some wanted achievement.
  • Interview with Beatrice and Eranio:
    • Eranio was the first president of the Brazilian Enneagram Institute.
    • Beatrice is the author of our program Enneagram Roadmap as well as the author of The Complete Enneagram: 48 Paths to Greater Self-Knowledge
    • Eranio’s phrase: “Spiritual work without psychological work is dangerous. Psychological work without spiritual work is incomplete.”
    • We need to see psychological and spiritual development as the same thing.
    • Some people do spiritual bypass by looking for spiritual experiences without doing the hard work of touching wounds and traumas.
    • Other people get too involved with psychological development and try to find wound after wound without going through the transcendental path of healing, which involves spirit.
    • People need to shift to other forms of work, techniques, and therapists, or they risk getting caught in a comfort zone.
    • Vacuum in the heart.
    • When people get interested in Enneagram, they stop short of what they need to work on to face their core issues.
    • There’s no bypass.
    • If you’re doing the work, you must face your shadow.
    • Persephone’s world.
    • The Enneagram is a profoundly spiritual tool.
    • Access higher potential thru transcending the ego
    • If you look at the Enneagram symbol, you see a time machine.
    • If you follow the arrows back, you go back in time to your childhood
    • If you go with the arrow, you go to the future.
    • When we go against the arrow, we meet our child and can get in touch with our wounds or our soul.
    • The child was more in touch with the soul
    • Arrows against are called the “soul child point.”
    • Enneagram is a holistic system where we can explore past & future. Explore psychological wounds and get in touch with the spirit
    • If people experience it physically, it makes more sense.
    • Half an hour after doing the work, some people don’t even remember doing the work because it was so intense.
    • But their bodies remember.
    • We need to trust the body more. Our society is too dominated by the mind and too disconnected from the body.
    • There are three centers of intelligence: head, heart, and body.
    • We tend to rely on one center more than the other two.
    • Any human being using only one center is not a human being.
    • We need to use all three centers
  • Could there be something spiritual imbued in our work with Myers-Briggs?
  • Myers-Briggs is more of a psychological tool. There isn’t much spirituality to it.
  • We knew there was something incomplete in the Myers-Briggs system.
  • A lot of our community are transcending a faith background or changing their relationship with it.
  • Much of organized spirituality does miss the psychological piece.
  • Having a profoundly religious background doesn’t guarantee a spiritual connection.
  • Religion doesn’t equal spirituality.
  • Many people try desperately to find spirituality in organized religion, and they are left with a void.
  • How does each of us need to interact with the spiritual/sacred?
  • Nothing in our world is one-size-fits-all.
  • We have to follow this road, or there is going to be a big piece missing.
  • It puts our brains and our soul in a vice when we try to force ourselves into a spiritual mold that doesn’t fit.
  • The Enneagram is endlessly expandable.
  • Imagine the Enneagram symbol as a 3D sphere.
  • See numbers as stations of development as you go. Like Spiral Dynamics.
  • Let’s assume most of humanity is at station one.
  • Few people leave the first station of awareness.
  • The masses choose not to do the work.
  • Those who do the work can be the avatars for millions of others.
  • Growth will never be accessible to everyone. Not everyone chooses that path.
  • Be true to the message and let people interact with it in the way they will.
  • “The bigger the light, the bigger the shadow.”
  • The more growth work you do, the more you are stepping into the light/awareness, and you’re going to see some serious shit in your life.
  • There’s an opportunity cost that comes with growth. The opportunity to live a more mundane life.
  • There are benefits of living a templatized life.
  • “Don’t you wish you had taken the blue pill?”
  • The Enneagram symbol has shock points.
  • Those who do personal growth generate a resource that becomes available to the rest of the world.
  • Enneagram Instincts: Social, Sexual, Self-Preservation
    • Social: relationships, tribe
    • Self-preservation: protecting physicality. Safety
    • Sexual: survival strategies based on bonding
      • Instinctual sequence:
      • 1st: dominant,
      • 2nd: secondary,
      • 3rd: repressed
  • Repressed is different than a blind spot.
  • Repressed is something we don’t want to see. Like a beach ball, we keep pushing underwater.
    • Sexual repressed: The urge to merge. Merging with our subtle bodies, not just physical.
    • Self-preservation repressed: Be quiet with self. Find the sacred within. Work with basic life structures.
    • Social repressed: To be leaders. Reach out and do the thing they resist the most – to be seen.
  • The dominant instinct’s first work is to live it fully. Respect the animal.
  • Then stop the instinct from over functioning. Tame it.
  • The conceits of each type.
  • All the fears and concerns we struggle with are the things that our type does the best.
  • Beatrice/Eranio online resources
  • A lot of Carl Jung’s concepts were spiritual.
  • “Do you know why insights come at 1:30 in the morning? It’s when we are the least stubborn.”
  • Is there a spiritual aspect to Myers-Briggs?

In this episode, Joel and Antonia chat with Enneagram experts Dr. Beatrice Chestnut and Uranio Paes about the spiritual uses of the Enneagram. #myersbriggs #enneagram

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We want to hear from you. Leave your comments below…


  • Antonia Dodge
    • Antonia Dodge
    • October 30, 2019 at 2:13 pm

    Thanks for the book recommendation by Jeffrey Raff. Checking it out now.


  • Seely
    • Seely
    • October 29, 2019 at 8:33 pm

    Antonia, I think that it would be great for you to be a leader for women. You are so articulate and straightforward, with a sense of humour to boot! You could approach it from the angle of being an intuitive thinker woman, as women of that type don’t get a whole lot of representation, generally.

  • Cat
    • Cat
    • October 29, 2019 at 9:06 am

    Just wanted to share some ideas I had about the question if spirituality and the mbti, the driver function is also called the Hero, I believe that this because for the ego to be comfortable with itself it must be the Hero in its own story. The archetypal Hero story is one of sacrifice and rebirth, we are constantly pushed into other less comfortable shadow roles such as Critic or Trickster which dismantles the Hero Narrative (death) until we can reconstruct a Hero Narrative by overcoming our mistakes ( rebirth) I think that Jung used the archetypes as characters in our own stories, I’m far from an expert just a deep thinking Infj.

  • matt
    • matt
    • October 28, 2019 at 11:59 pm

    Long time listener, first time commenter (INTP, go figure)!

    If you’re interested in integrating spiritual elements into personal transformation, development, evolution, etc… whatever you want to call it, Micah White has a really interesting four-quadrant model for social/political revolution theory using activism as a framework.

    The four quadrants are subjectivism (subjective & SPIRITUAL), voluntarism (subjective & material), structuralism (objective & material), and THEURGISM (objective & SPIRITUAL).

    He thinks any form of social/poltical revolution has to include all quadrants to have a shot at winning and notes how funny it is that Americans (mostly the political left) won’t touch spiritual realms with a ten foot pole so theres a big void to fill.

    I could see how ya’ll starting to model spirituality into your frameworks would be interested in this. He details it in his book, END OF PROTEST: a new playbook for revolution.

    You might connect with his X-axis in the model being subjective-objective. It reminds me of your discussions around THE ETHICS OF AMBIGUITY.

    Hope yall are doing meet-ups in the Northeast soon and we get to talk spirituality!

  • Drew
    • Drew
    • October 28, 2019 at 10:18 pm

    First of all, Antonia: I would love to see what you would bring as a women’s leader. I think you’d fill a void for many of us who find most of those spaces nauseating.

    So when it comes to spirituality and Jung, I’ve felt something that I can’t quite place in relation to Jung’s concept of the collective unconscious and Joseph Campbell’s work finding common themes in storytelling across cultures. I’ve started to understand stories themselves as very spiritual things, and as a reflection of our Oneness.

    Also, as an INFJ, I’ve started to use energetic visualizations when concentrating on my Fe. When I’m overwhelmed in a social situation, I try to pull my ego back and focus on the energy I’m giving to the group. I sort of visualize it as a force field, or I see myself as a clam, filtering out the “dirty” energy.

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