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In this episode, Joel and Antonia walk through the tension between personal responsibility and external burden as it relates to our personality.

In this podcast you’ll find:

  • Why is the pandemic so anxiety producing?
  • How can we mitigate the effects of anxiety?
  • How this affects our perceiving function more than our decision making one.
  • Looking at the pandemic through a systems thinking lens.
  • Some perspectives from Joel and Antonia as Exploration (Ne) users.
  • How do maps and models provide a helpful lens?
  • The concept of “black-box thinking”
  • Looking at the pandemic and the world’s reaction through The Tribal Leadership Model – find out previous podcast on Dave Logan’s model
    • A view of tribal levels 3 and 4 – and how current events could move us up to level 4
  • Thoughts around sustainability, reliance and being community focused, combined with globalization as ways of working through the pandemic.
  • Why cord cutting from society’s collective anxiety might help highly sensitive people (HSPs)
  • How have we built our lives to be reliant on systems?
    • The effect this has on our self esteem
    • What is our level of dependency and how can we become more interdependent?
    • What skills and knowledge can we learn?
  • A look at our current cycle and timeline, according to the Generational Theory model presented in The Fourth Turning: An American Prophecy – What the Cycles of History Tell Us About America’s Next Rendezvous with Destiny by William Strauss
  • How can models help us organise the world and make good decisions?
  • The safety and security level of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs – and how this relates to the pandemic
  • The importance of healthy routines and taking care of yourself

In this episode Joel and Antonia talk about ways to keep calm in the midst of chaos. #coronavirus #covid19

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We want to hear from you. Leave your comments below…


  • Michael
    • Michael
    • March 23, 2020 at 2:13 pm

    Routines are so important.

    As an ISTJ, my routine is keeping me sane. I was lucky enough to structure my schedule (law school) around having classes only 1 day a week so that I could actually get my work done during the week. Because I was able to set this up, I have been fortunate enough to keep most of my daily routine very much the same since I started social distancing. I really agreed with your practical advice to maintain a routine, and I just wanted to add that it has been super helpful in my experience.

    Also, the personal note at the end of the episode was so incredibly heartfelt and really resonated with me. Thank you for everything you do at Personality Hacker. Turning this situation into an “opportunity” and chance to work on self-sufficiency, interdependency, and self-confidence is such a strong, empowering message. :)

    P.S. – While I have not bought 11 copies of your book (only 1), I have sent more links to your podcast to my friends since we have been social distancing. (I send 0019, then 0020, and the episode on their personality type after having them take a test or two.)

  • Simone
    • Simone
    • March 22, 2020 at 4:33 pm

    Thank you for your wisdom during this time. It’s especially important to think of those who do not have the resources to ride out this pandemic (I’m an INFP and an HSP, so I’m pretty sensitive to these things). I’m deeply troubled by the cavalier attitude some people, who call themselves therapists, are taking. They are even spreading conspiracy theories about the virus and are whining more about their freedoms taken away than about the lack of respirators available to those who need them. Thank you again for your work.

  • Chrissy
    • Chrissy
    • March 18, 2020 at 10:40 pm

    I enjoy every podcast and have purchased two of your books, one as a gift to a friend. Just tossing in the mix that I have embraced the perspective you shared today about the virus. But I’m struggling with it even as I decide it’s probably the"right" one for me.

    We have to all do our part because it is important to keep people well so that we don’t overwhelm the hospitals and cause people who need to care to not be able to receive it.

    When my son uses a very sharp knife to chop onions for our chili dinner tonight I think, “Gosh, don’t cut your finger off bc we can’t go to the hospital!”

    Social distancing is the avenue / perspective I am choosing bc I think it’s “right” – humane – to do for our greater good.

    But I am struggling internally and believing it is ineffective. (It doesn’t help that I know many people are ignoring CDC recommendations.)

    Here’s the meat of what I want to / am scared to share: Part of me can’t help flaring up with (…and I am sorry to admit this, so please be gentle in any replies…) “So, we are basically cratering our economy and the fiber of our daily lives to save people who will die within a decade or two anyway?”

    I wish I didn’t have this thought. It doesn’t come up for my husband who KNOWS the stopping of daily life as we know it is the right thing to do. I can’t help thinking this is kinda the wrong approach – not because I think I won’t get it – I don’t know why but I am not really afraid of death – but because it won’t really work… people aren’t taking the task to separate seriously. And so we will get a lukewarm mix of cratered economics and continued covid-19.

    Two weeks disruption is one thing, but months and months of social distancing? Losing our jobs? Kids without sports and school? I feel like I can’t take this for months on end.

    And yet, if I were to callously accept the little voice in me just quoted, I would anticipate thinking a thought one year from now that says to myself, “Wow, you were willing to let people die so you could keep your money and routines. What is a life for if it’s just for your own comforts and control?”

    Just sharing that I am struggling with this. Hope I conveyed it clearly. Thanks

  • Josephine
    • Josephine
    • March 22, 2020 at 1:17 am

    Hi Antonia and Joel, I’m a junior in college, and an ENFP, and I’ve been listening to PH for over a year. I’ve never commented before on a podcast, but I had to leave something because it’s so inspirational how you guys are able to transform such a difficult situation into a positive message. My classes have been canceled and mostly everyone I know has been losing it a little and you guys are just able to bring everything into perspective, as usual of course. You make some really good points about how this is gonna affect the world for the better! Thank you for what you’re doing, now more than ever.

  • Aisha Musa
    • Aisha Musa
    • March 18, 2020 at 8:43 pm

    Hi, I love your work and thank you for this podcast. Your discussion of reliance on systems to solve our problems for us is an important one. We need to think about the role of systems and our mature (maturing?) roles within them. The example of the young woman who was uncomfortable because of male competitiveness in her environment is an example, in my view, highlights a serious problem in how the role of systems is understood. Contrast that example with instances in which secretaries were chased around desks, which was commonly joked about half a century ago. That was a problem within the system. Have you thought of doing a podcast comparing these understandings of systems, their roles in our lives, and our roles within them?

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