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In this episode, Joel and Antonia have a free-form conversation about how they each approach conversation differently.
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22 comments
I want to incorporate PH in my life.
I listen to you guys all the time I just want to say thank you. I’m not a student but I’ll like to become one of you students.
Just in case you find this an interesting perspective, I have a short story for you. I’m an INTJ in my mid 30s. Recently, a few of my sisters, my mom, and some female friends took me out for my birthday. We were about 14 people ages 18-65. I sat in the middle of the group (on purpose). I had a fantastic time. There were always 2-3 conversations happening at the same time and I just floated between all of them. I didn’t talk a lot, but found it was fantastic to be an observer of their natural conversation where there didn’t seem to be any pressure on me to contribute.
The drama happened afterwards. There were at least three conversations (that I know of) that took place between friends and intimates where the person who knew me better had to give reassurance that I had not been disappointed or bored by the outing. There were three individuals who left the event convinced that since they hadn’t properly included me and drawn me into the various conversations that they had failed me. I couldn’t understand how this could have happened. Everyone at the table had spent one-on-one time with me prior to the event at least once. I’d known each person for a minimum of 2 years, but I’d known most for my whole life. I had spent the entire evening relaxed, gathering insights, effectively getting to know each of these women better, and they’d not been able to tell that I was actually enjoying myself immensely.
I know I’m hard to read, and when reflecting on it, I’m sure I had my thinking face on (rbf). However, I also know that I did contribute a few times quite naturally. More importantly, though, I was always physically leaning into the group and particularily into the conversation that held my interest at the time. If I wasn’t leaning in, I probably just leaned back briefly with my head cocked to the side – a short pause to recalibrate an assumption I had – before leaning in again.
I think most people get caught on silence=boredom, and they also stop reading feedback from others after observing their facial expressions. My body language is a much better indicator of how I’m doing. Although I have no control over the impassive scowl when I’m busy analyzing things and taking in new information, I also have no control over showing interest by getting as physically close to the conversation as possible. The latter should be reassuring, even if the former puts you off. Anyone who knows someone with a face like mine, read their shoulders (still facing you? assume all is good and carry on).
Is there standard body language related to specific types?
When not directly facing the world with my resting b***h face, I have a tendency to tilt my head when I’m taking in new information. It’s often accompanied by narrowing my eyes from below (by lifting cheek muscles). I’ve seen people physically retreat when I do this, but I’ve figured out that adding a smile looks more frightening to them. My actual thought process is usually very kind in nature even with this look on my face, but I think it usually takes me a few seconds to process and react to their retreat. I often have to find ways to make ammends for what my face did later so I don’t alienate people I genuinely care for.
Completely unrelated to this, thanks for the explanation on Ni and what it actually is and does. It was really liberating to have it described in a way that was meaningful to me and how I’ve always observed myself. The internet (often including explanations by other Ni dominants) has it either wrong or so narrow that it misses key strengths and limitations. This isn’t really surprising when each person is building either on the misconceptions of others, or on poor language choices that they estimate will work for the majority of the audience even if they’re missing elements of authenticity that other Ni dominants will resonate with.
Looking forward to reading your book!
I haven’t completely understood Enneagrams and most tests put me at either 4 or 6 and I can relate to both but I’m consistently getting a sexual result and that makes so much sense when it comes to conversational style. I am an ENFP and I do have a tendency to perform but whenever I want to have a conversation with someone, I want to connect. If I’m comfortable with them, I would act like Antonia and share personal stories about myself while expecting something similar in return.
I notice that I even do that in online social groups. Maybe it’s related to me being an extrovert but I want to connect with everyone in the group on a much deeper level than just the casual conversations or conversations around the topic that united us. When I joined my first one as a teen, it bugged me whenever someone answered ’I’m fine, thanks’ to a ‘how are you’ question. I would tell you how my cat suddenly popped up with a wound in its chest and we’re trying to get her well again but couldn’t afford the vet and I was surprised that some of them found that sudden spew of words off putting because now I’ve put them in a situation where they had to navigate through trickier social constraints (until they get to know me and knew that I just want them to be authentic).
When it comes to new or unfamiliar group settings, I have a bit of a social anxiety so I tend to be the quiet one who just observes and only speak when spoken too. It’s not that I don’t understand the social norms but I can’t adhere them and be honestly authentic with myself. I would feel like I’m lying to everyone. It used to be a source of conflict between me and my INFJ and ESFJ parents to whom social norms come very naturally and they thought that I was acting the fool and being rebellious especially since I act so well when I’m in my elements.
For example, when I was on a talk show, I could switch into a performance role and to an outside, I looked very much in my elements so my father especially thought that I was just calling attention to myself when I say I don’t know how to navigate through social conventions because sitting for a TV interview is much, much harder than talking to an acquaintance for most people. But for me, performing and conversing are two different things and I can’t replace one need with the other. And I don’t need to converse in order to perform. If I notice that someone is paying a little too much attention to me as I’m going about something mundane, I’ll act a little eccentric, just as an entertainment to both of us.
But I have never considered looking at my Enneagram variant when it comes to conversational styles and I think you have walked upon something fascinating here. Thanks for sharing your experiment results with us!
I’m an ENFJ, and I don’t know enough about that to know how it relates to me in the context of group conversations, but I can really relate to Joel in this instance. When I enter a social event, I have a tendency to be loud and interactive, but what I find myself doing within a short time is looking around and noticing those who aren’t being drawn into conversation. At that point I start “working the room” to do all I can to make sure nobody feels left out. It’s something I’ve observed my doing over and over again. I take two things away from this experience.
First of all, I tell myself that the person (people) I’m trying to draw in might actually be made more uncomfortable by my attention. In other words, they might be extremely introverted and really prefer to just be left alone, but I’m incapable of allowing that. I’ve challenged myself with the idea that I might be addressing my need to make sure everyone is included at the expense of those who would really prefer not to have my spotlight on them. On the other hand, that’s not necessarily what I’m experiencing during those interchanges, so I’m not really sure.
Secondly, what ends up happening for me in these situations is that I don’t join the conversations I really want to be in that might be going on across the room. While it’s almost impossible for me not to notice who isn’t being included, I wonder how much good I’m actually doing for myself and others. If anyone has ideas about this, I’d be interested to hear them.