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In this episode, Joel talks with Antonia and Melissa Harris (Personality Hacker’s Profiling Coach) about the personal challenges they both face as NT women (ENTP and INTJ).
In this podcast you’ll find:
- Guest host Melissa Harris, Executive Coach for Personality Hacker’s Profiler Training and INTJ, joins the conversation.
- What are the top social challenges xNTP and xNTJ women face?
- How Sensor Thinker women can resonate with some of these concerns.
- How does being an Intuitive layer more complexity?
- Why NT Women can’t as easily do emotional labor for other people.
- What are the social strategies Antonia & Melissa, as NT women, have developed?
- How do they deal with being underestimated? And also being intimidating?
- The advantages of communicating good intent.
- Our secret powers as NT women.
- Why your hard-earned adaptability serves you well.
- What is the universal statement NT women say?
- The leverage point of being between the masculine and feminine polarity.
- Our healing powers as NT women.
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How is it being a mother as an NT woman?
- What comes easily.
- Navigating the realm of emotions.
- The things that drain us.
- The hidden shame many NT mothers experience.
- Deciding which parenting rules apply.
- Giving yourself permission to be offbeat.
- The helpful advice every NT woman needs to hear.
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Podcast - Episode 0353 - Social Challenges NT Women Face - Part 1 (INTJ - INTP - ENTP - ENTJ)
Podcast - Episode 0355 - Using Your 6th Function To Break A Loop - Part 1 (ISxP - ESxJ)
23 comments
Even though I’m male, I recognize many of the problems you describe in this series. Particularly shutting up about things that I know would, as you say, make everyone " be ready to bring out the torches and pitchforks". It’s probably a combination of my upbringing and the general Swedish conflict-averseness. I think Sweden as a country is somehow unusually Fe-heavy – quite strange, as we are known for industry and technology, and for being reserved.
Online, the issue is solved by anonymity (which unfortunately is getting harder to achieve and less respected over time) – and make no mistake, I’m not talking about trolling, I write what I seriously think – but in reality I would, for example, rarely dare to talk about my thoughts about children which are very similar to Antonia’s and especially Melissa’s, although so much more so that I knew from young age that I would never want any. Despite “just” having to be the father in that case, not the mother.
Anecdote: I once discussed my thoughts and feelings about children on an online forum, and got the answer “But you were a child yourself!”, whatever that would have to do with it – Years later I came up with the answer I should have given, had I been quick-witted enough: “Yes, but fortunately it’s something that passes with time”.
Hey, INTJ here, kid of an INTJ mom, this latest episode was interesting as it both made sense yet not and my mom totally fits into the strange parenting category by teaching with asking questions and encouraging critical thinking as my sibling and I grew up. As for the making sense thing goes, the comments about pulling away from conversations with other women, essentially being alone in the crowd as there isn’t much to connect with and letting others lead the conversation topics until I can find out what they deem to be correct topics are totally things that I experience.
I will say that when I was a child, I didn’t understand the whys of peoples’ reactions. I could see that they were upset, or taken aback or whatever else, but not the why. The fact that they’d leave the conversation or never talk to me again just reinforced that I wasn’t a “people” person. Not that I’d ever willingly seek out a group of kids to rope into a game anyways, my sibling did that. I was more, still am, alright with getting my fill of interaction and then leaving it at that, kind of like a cat. When I want it, it is sought, when I don’t, please don’t talk to me. Then hitting preteen stage, I gave up on social interactions, retreating into books and people watching.
Understanding people, reading why their body language was changing, didn’t really become important till I got involved with horses and found myself needing to communicate with what seemed to be super stoic emotional bricks on legs. Turns out, horses are extremely emotional, communicative and intuitive. Upon being able to read them, then reading a human was much easier. Which helped with figuring out how to not be a social wrecking ball, stand-offish or intimidating.
I still don’t like being in huge social settings unless it is my equally strange extended family that all prize the NT style of thinking.
Now, why it didn’t make sense. Everyone has different priorities and things that they learn sooner as opposed to later. Emotional intelligence wasn’t a thing terribly prized by my family, critical/artistic thinking and self control is, and emotional intelligence is the box that gets pulled out of the closet when needed. This greatly impacted what was and was not classified as “normal” by me growing up, and still require reminders of as everyone else, outside my family, is strange. Conversing in the family is easy, outside of that, uh, make-up, latest fashion, sports? . . .let’s try history, science, music, art and current world solving. Thus, understanding people off of the get go? It doesn’t make sense to me.
So there’s this strange divide. On one hand, the topics covered in the podcast were normal, where they were coming from was not, but they made sense or not, depending on the context.
I sent an email after the first episode saying thanks and wow but after listening to the second episode (twice) I feel compelled to say it again. What a relief to listen to two NT women talk about life from this perspective. Laughed, amen’d, dropped jaw, got curious, may have shed a few judgment burdens about myself and society I’ve been carrying around. I appreciated Joel’s last question about what Antonia and Melissa would say to their younger self; my immature self took it all in. Reading the above comments remind me of my awkwardness and lack of interest in most social situations involving packs of women…unless I am in charge of them. I find even the sound of these packs of women confusing because I can’t hear myself think or know what I’m experiencing (even as the complexity of women’s minds can be inspiring). On the mother/kid topic, I have a strong affinity with children and am generous with affection and the mental awareness of feelings and knowing, but I can honestly say it’s really while learning is happening, minds are opening, and children are curious and perceiving when I engage. I do love to play because I’m pattern hunting, learning about learning. I appreciated the conversation that led to seeing this more clearly. I definitely want to fix problems and can listen deeply for answers within others as they describe the problem; def a super power as I feel their awkwardness, stuck minds, and pain. I am a terrible and impatient listener otherwise, though, so I also have a stockpile of prepared templates to help me at least be quiet. So much to consider or say but mostly, thanks! INTP woman here
30 year old INTP woman here, and I have never felt so “seen” as I did when listening to these last two episodes. Thank you!
I have always felt like an outsider for the myriad of reasons you guys touched on, but I never specifically thought about my struggle with femininity as being a direct correlation to my NT. Now that I am aware of it it makes total sense, but I can’t help but wonder why this has never been a fully formed thought that has breached my consciousness in the last few years that I’ve really been exploring my type? Because really, it seems so obvious to me now.
Thinking back on my childhood, I think I was around 8 when I caught onto society’s interpretation of gender roles. My best friend up until that point was a boy and we were inseparable. We had sleepovers every weekend and I think those stopped around that age, whether that was due to our parents no longer deeming co-ed sleepovers appropriate or kids starting to talk about “cooties,” I can’t be too sure.
I assume the reason I haven’t consciously reconciled this part of myself is because I was so young when I started implementing these notions of femininity in order to assimilate into the world. It makes me wonder what ELSE is just chillin’ out in my subconscious, waiting to to be brought to light by someone spelling it out for me so clearly in a podcast. Whenever I feel like I’ve hit a roadblock in therapizing myself (as I like to call it), you guys give me more to consider :)
I also really appreciated you guys discussing how NT’s show up in relationships. I suffer from a lot of guilt and wonder if that is a common theme among other NT women? Most of my guilt comes from knowing that I can’t bring emotion to the table the way Feelers can. And even though in nearly all of my relationships my logic and rationale is appreciated (if not sought out) when sorting through personal issues, that sense of guilt is still there that I can’t be the soft cuddly shoulder for them to cry on. And I don’t think I’m feeling guilty because I WANT to be that person for them, I’m feeling guilty that I don’t… All I want is for the people in my life to be happy and I want to help them, and I think it’s hard to reconcile how I want those things yet despise when I’m in a situation where I’m being asked for that kind of emotional support.
I received a lot of validation in this episode reminding me that I don’t have to be all things to all people. I can be the friend to help figure out a solution, but it’s okay that I can’t also be the friend to tell you everything is going to be okay even when I know it might not work out. I’m interested if others would find it acceptable if I were to communicate to them the kind of support I can offer when necessary, or if that is a boundary that I realize within myself but don’t necessarily convey to others (here we go again, trying to maintain the social equilibrium and modify myself so as not make anyone else uncomfortable!)?
Anyway, I have so many other points I’d love to comment on, but I’d be writing this comment all day and I have actual work I need to get back to! Thank you again for such an enlightening episode. I do hope you consider doing another on NT women (I’m unable to make the virtual event :( ). I crave the kind of conversation I was able to experience between you two and it’s so reassuring to know that I’m not alone and there are other women out there I can connect with like that. And to all you NT women out there, come out come out wherever you are! As Antonia pointed out, I think we’ve accomplished blending in to maintain the social norm so well that we are now hiding from each other!
INTJ here. I am not a parent but I’ve spent my younger years taking care of other people’s children. In contrast to what was talked about on the podcast, I find myself loving babies the most and really disliking the stage when children start to talk and ask questions as this is when we begin to explain the world and instill values in earnest and there is most potential to ‘break’ them or damage them psychologically.
I did get the impression from the conversation that there is maybe an element of executive functioning impairment present that is being assigned to being an INT- personality, that may in fact be coincidental. I’ve tested as INTJ many times (and once as INFJ) and while I recognise the challenges of difficulty relating to this feminine energy and being expected to embody it when I don’t, I do naturally have very strong ‘mommy’ energy which does not seem to be a natural part of an INTJ profile. If I’m honest, I’m probably inclined to believe in Myers Briggs types as much as in astrological signs. There is something there, but broad brush strokes, rather than a precise map of an individual’s personality.
Still, it’s very interesting to hear from the perspectives we don’t hear from all that often. Thank you!