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In this episode, Joel talks with Antonia and Melissa Harris (Personality Hacker’s Profiling Coach) about the personal challenges they both face as NT women (ENTP and INTJ).
In this podcast you’ll find:
- Guest host Melissa Harris, Executive Coach for Personality Hacker’s Profiler Training and INTJ, joins the conversation.
- What are the top social challenges xNTP and xNTJ women face?
- How Sensor Thinker women can resonate with some of these concerns.
- How does being an Intuitive layer more complexity?
- Why NT Women can’t as easily do emotional labor for other people.
- What are the social strategies Antonia & Melissa, as NT women, have developed?
- How do they deal with being underestimated? And also being intimidating?
- The advantages of communicating good intent.
- Our secret powers as NT women.
- Why your hard-earned adaptability serves you well.
- What is the universal statement NT women say?
- The leverage point of being between the masculine and feminine polarity.
- Our healing powers as NT women.
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How is it being a mother as an NT woman?
- What comes easily.
- Navigating the realm of emotions.
- The things that drain us.
- The hidden shame many NT mothers experience.
- Deciding which parenting rules apply.
- Giving yourself permission to be offbeat.
- The helpful advice every NT woman needs to hear.
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Podcast - Episode 0353 - Social Challenges NT Women Face - Part 1 (INTJ - INTP - ENTP - ENTJ)
Podcast - Episode 0355 - Using Your 6th Function To Break A Loop - Part 1 (ISxP - ESxJ)
23 comments
I am so looking forward to this podcast. I just listened to the first one and wanted to leave a comment before it slips down my list. As an INTJ and someone who came to motherhood at 40 I expect I’ll get a lot out of this one too, especially from the comments above.
As for the first episode, I could go on for a long, long time about experiences you mentioned, Antonia, but instead I’ll just say I was amazed at how you summed up my experiences…with women, with men, with former workplaces, with organizations I belonged to, with that cult I somehow got tangled up with there some time ago… and now probably with my child and with other moms (you alluded to this in the first episode as well).
Most of my life I’ve felt I was both too much and not enough. I always sought men out or at least they always seemed to feel comfortable around me. Which worked great for friendships, mostly, but if it promised to go further, I found that once the initial attraction wore off some of these men would be disappointed that I wasn’t…well…more like a woman (or their/society’s idea of a woman). I was told that I think too much, that I think more than any man they’ve ever met (sounds like a compliment but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t meant that way), and so on. So many comments about my brain and how it was an issue.
Flip that and then there were the comments about how I should be more feeling—you talked about how people might say you’re self-censoring when you’re not—I was told I was not allowing my feelings… my ex-husband called me the ice queen (pretty sure this wasn’t meant as a compliment either). Oh how many self-help books, meditation classes, seminars on the feminine I attended to try to understand this elusive concept and break down what it looked like!
Then the groups… oh my… for some reason after I left the field of forestry I found myself teaching, then facilitating at a university then I landed with an international group of facilitators. A group of men and women but definitely a sisterhood. How I loved the work and craved the connection but how hamstrung I felt. Despite the warm fuzzies of it all, despite all the talk of creating ‘safe spaces’ for our participants the corruption (and abuse in some cases, certainly abuse of power) was astounding… and of course I spoke up about my concerns but, well… I think we all know how that ends. Then again, I’d like to think that these days I might be a little more skillful about how I approached the whole thing. All in all though when you were describing the sisterhood and feeling outside that (episode 1) I alternated between laughing and feeling sad. You certainly struck a nerve.
I believe I started off by saying I could go on and on but I wouldn’t, but I did. I enjoy the podcasts and I always leave with some things to think about and often a little boost along the lines of ‘maybe I’m actually okay’. But this one really went deep.
Hi Shiru, as another INFJ (I assume that’s your type), I related a lot to what you wrote, especially having envy towards thinker women through having Ti-envy. For myself personally, I think a lot of this had to do with being pushed too much into fields where NT’s tend to excel instead of having my own NF strengths recognized throughout a lot of my life.
I hope whatever our types, we can all learn to appreciate our own strengths and use them to benefit others instead of harming them because we secretly resent them for being good at what we’re not.
I really relate as an INFP to the challenges of jumping into conversation with groups of women. Leading with Fi means that I’m often vibe-deaf in groups, when I’m not actively trying to put a stop to a vibe that my Fi tells me is simply wrong, such as cruel gossip. As you might imagine, this doesn’t go over well. My INTP guy friend with inferior Fe is often more adept at discerning and maintaining the vibe than I am.
As a girl, I found other girls and their fascination with social entanglements confusing and much preferred the straightforwardness of dealing with boys. My ESFJ mom didn’t understand this at all and pushed me to be “nicer”. I didn’t seek out female friends until I was well into my 20’s and went into engineering partially to avoid the perils of females in packs.
Hey!
ENFJ here. I’ve wondered who it is exactly who finds toddlers and babies so endlessly fascinating. I was as bored as you described too. I think maybe there’s an assumption that Fe would just enjoy meeting the needs of a tiny human ad infinitum, but I felt so isolated and I missed my friends and my former movements through the social world that I didn’t understand how to recapture initially with babies on hand. Eventually, I felt more like myself but realized I’d done that by joining Mom groups and becoming social again with a long social calendar that often involved handing kids off to other people so I could go talk and be a grownup—eventually feeling really guilty about how much time I was managing to get out of just being with my kids. It was really interesting to hear your take on it and what I do and do not identify with. I didn’t love all the preparation and stuff either, and Se tertiary meant I often moved through it all like a hurricane barking orders at everyone else.
This series in general has been really helpful in showing me how I’ve unintentionally hurt a lot of other thinkers in my life. I DO like debate and deep interesting and weird conversation, and I really do not get offended all that easily—often because I’m being a human shock absorber for every wayward comment in a conversation. But it catches up to me eventually with thinkers. I’ll go in for the challenging debate, but I eventually get upset at all the ways thinkers trespass into what I view as personal or relational territory that should not be touched in any way if we’re going to stay detached. Eventually the resentment builds up and I may snap (Se—oops) suddenly feeling like the thinker was disrespectful of all the work I’m doing to stay in it with them when actually 1. They don’t know and 2. They in no way know they are treading in areas I believe everyone should see as off-limits. In other cases I may just walk away or let it be known in subtle ways that I’m hurt, but I think that is just as if not more bewildering and hurtful. It’s really easy as a sensitive feeler to believe that thinkers have cornered the market on causing pain, when it’s not even close to true.
I’ve been really hard on my ENTP brother over the years, especially as kids. I never understood the bewildered look on his face when I got so hurt and angry. I just thought he was picking on me. My INTP husband has had to show me too that when I think I’m being entirely intellectual, I often put emotional and relational spin on everything and sometimes have a really hard time staying honest to cold hard truth. (Ok, not sometimes, all the time). And it’s frustrating because I’m so good at getting people to believe I’ve “won” or be on my side when I’m really disrespecting the Ti of it all by playing a little fast and loose with facts. I’ve learned to slow down and take the NTs in my life much more seriously and read them more kindly. My ability to really distill and clean slice information is so awkward and painful that having the help really makes me such a better person when I let them help. I’ve found too that when I finally humble myself to that work and admit my weakness, NTs are much more likely to receive my help in terms of Fe insights too which leads to me finally feeling appreciated and seen.
We need each other. Thanks for the insights and thoughts.
I often think that the challenge between Thinker and Feeler women is envy going both directions.
This was a really kind comment. Thank you for sharing it.
A