Podcast – Episode 0217 – Discrediting Feedback Does You No Favors

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In this episode, Joel and Antonia talk about using feedback to calibrate and refine your perspectives.

In this podcast you’ll find:

  • Logical Fallacy – Tu Quoque “You Also”
  • Appeal to hypocrisy
  • Discrediting someone’s argument by insisting they have never acted consistently on the matter.
  • It doesn’t matter what their behavior is. If what someone says is true, it is true.
  • Boundary setting is the framework.
  • “You aren’t perfect, so who are you to tell me what to do?”
  • Introverted Thinking: What is true? It doesn’t matter what anyone has done before now.
  • This kind of thinking prevents you from ever growing, improving, or seeing your faults.
  • Nobody has a perfect record.
  • Group codependency.
  • “Codependency can be distilled down to ‘I won’t call you on your shit if you don’t call me on mine.’”
  • If I say a particular behavior is bad, it doesn’t matter if I’m a bloody hypocrite. It’s still bad behavior.
  • You can say, “You’re right. It is bad behavior. I have seen you do it, too. Let’s work together to keep this from happening.”
  • Can you get to a place in a relationship where someone can call you on bad behavior, and you can hold it?
  • No matter how much we dislike a piece of info, we can’t shoot the messenger.
  • The universe gives us gifts when they point out our misbehavior.
  • It helps us become better versions of ourselves.
  • “I do better in fantasy. Thank you very much.”
  • Choosing rightness over happiness. You get what you want but at the cost of ultimate satisfaction.
  • Short-term gain for long-term loss.
  • If your behavior is hurting the outside world, it is because it has already done its damage inside of you.
  • You are just spreading the damage around at this point.
  • Let the info be the catalyst to work on that inner stuff.
  • If you are unwilling to listen to negative feedback, then you will rarely receive any positive feedback from the universe.
  • Ironclad defense strategy
  • How can you be receptive to outer world feedback?
  • Instead of seeing everyone else’s behavior as an agenda intended to destroy you, is there some truth in their observation that can help you grow?
  • What truth can I find in this?
  • The ego hits can be tough.
  • If you are at a place where you can’t receive feedback, you have probably created all sorts of barriers and boundaries to feedback.
  • Start to look at feedback as a message from the universe. Disregard the delivery system.
  • That is someone’s experience with me.
  • How can I show up in a way that is more consistent with how I see myself?
  • Don’t shoot the messenger. Do some detective work to find the gold.
  • They see you a certain way. Why is that?
  • Feedback that makes you squirm podcast.
  • Take the feedback.
  • Some people’s path of growth is not absorbing every piece of criticism and internalizing it.
  • Some of us have a fundamental belief that we are flawed, broken, sinful, and wicked.
  • The default setting is sin and hellfire.
  • Very toxic environment to be born into.
  • No matter how much abuse was heaped on top of you, it is your job to take it.
  • For someone with that kind of programming, then accepting every piece of criticism may be the exact opposite of what they should do.
  • If you are in a toxic environment that is heaping criticism on you, the message from the universe may be, “How much of this shit are you going to take before you get out?”
  • If you are the defensive type, the messages you are getting may be more content focused.
  • Or it may be, “Hey. Let some barriers down. Let in some feedback!”
  • For people who are wired to take things to heart, you have the right to have some pride and set some boundaries.
  • A willingness to listen to everything and take it can also be prideful.
  • House of Cards: Frank Underwood visits his hometown and says that their humility is their pride.
  • The picture of health is somebody who has healthy boundaries.
  • Let people in until it becomes dangerous.
  • Some people Tu Quoque themselves, “I’m not perfect enough to give anyone else criticism.”
  • Last weeks podcast
  • Can no one make a mistake anymore in the world?
  • In-fighting takes down such movements.
  • Some social justice warriors give the whole a bad name.
  • Perfection fidelity.
  • The results are better than some of the processes.

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Showing 13 comments
  • Anonymous
    Reply

    Social Justice Warriors have Feeling in the first or second slot and Introverted Thinking in their unconscious, they absolutely suck at logic and Introverted Thinking, that’s why they became Social Justice Warriors in the first place. Most of what Social Justice Warriors say is nonsense because of their poor Introverted Thinking, and their valuing of feelings over facts.

    Feedback only matters if it is true, if not, discard it.

  • Coral
    Reply

    Hello Joel and Antonia! Love the show! I think there’s a lot of insight, truth, and value here. Thanks for the opportunity to learn and engage in constructive thought and personal growth while having so much fun!

    Pertaining to this particular episode I find it sad (though understandable) to hear that Joel (and others) are lead to have such a negative self-image because of their Christian upbringing. I am passionate about passing on to my children what I believe to be true in myself and is also Catholic Christian philosophy: that I am intrinsically good. I am heartily frustrated by the fact that Christian teaching has been splintered into thousands of different denominations and, therefore, has thousands of different teachings often in direct contradiction with each other. I realize I don’t have the facts but am just speculating (I’m ENFP btw) that whichever version(s) of “Christianity” teach that a human is a worm destined for hell is radically offbeat with the heart of true Christianity. Perhaps as a message from the universe or just a friendly gesture from me, a podcast junkie, I suggest checking out the podcast Pints with Aquinas with Matt Fradd for some Thomistic Philosophy and fun listening.

    Also, regarding myers-briggs I heard from a friend that people can change the first and last letter of their 4-letter code? What do you think? Can people change or only mature their cognitive functions?

  • Suzie
    Reply

    Joel and Antonia,
    Thanks so much for your podcasts, I’ve only been listening for a few weeks now, my amazing daughter got me started. This one in particular was a great tool for us to discuss even today, as we were talking through a bit of a conflict/challenge and ultimately both of us wanting to receive and grow.

  • Chan
    Reply

    Hi Guys,

    I just discovered your podcast today and listed to a couple episodes – very insightful! I enjoy it a great deal. I did, however find the statement that the idea that ‘people are inherently sinful is ludicrous’ is shockingly intolerant and demeaning. The idea of original sin is at the core of Christianity and dismissing it as ludicrous seems to be abusive. It was a statement designed to demean an entire group of people.

    I have no doubt that you experienced exactly what you described and I wish that I could have been around to answer the deeper questions you had. Emotional abuse is not what’s at the heart of the doctrine or original sin, nor is it a guilt-trip or emotional manipulation (although to the Christian’s same, it is often used that way).

    Many times in your podcasts you freely confess that nobody is perfect. We all make mistakes and we have done so since we can first remember. It is this idea that is at the heart of original sin. It’s not that the person is worthless, or that a person is as evil as they can possibly be, nor is it that a person commits every single sin they can muster-up. Rather it is a description illustrating that there is nothing a person can do to attain their own salvation because we are imperfect and God is not. It is the idea that the moral standard of God can’t be attained by mortal mankind.

    You said that ‘there is an escape clause’ but that is what the Gospel is from beginning to end. It’s not an escape clause – it is THE clause.

    It should also be noted that even though a person may believe the gospel, they still keep missing the mark! Perfection, sadly, will not be attained by anyone in this life.

    That is why I enjoy your podcast. You can offer so much insight and help for us as we struggle to sort-out why we keep making odd choices and equipping us to be better versions of ourselves.

  • Mary
    Reply

    Joel and Antonia
    When I was a child my mother once said to me ” Where do you get so much pride that you think that you are worse than other people?” It took me years to realize that I was not demonstrating pride as in false humility. Instead , I was feeling fatigue and failure. I was trying to explain, to my mother, my over sense of responsibility (INFJ). I was feeling inadequate to the task of carrying the weight of the emotional and physical work I was servantized to fulfill. The words came out less than articulately. I did not have the concept or words for thinking I was doing well and the truth was that there was just too much work. I was upset because I was not good enough for the needs. Later I learned that boundary building was possible, and that with others, being articulate was not a requirement to be heard.
    Thank You for who you are, and the work you do. Each of your words resonate and carry weight for me. You each hear the human condition and heart through individually listening clearly to your own heart/mind and as a couple the heart/mind of each other too.
    I am so grateful .
    Mary

  • Megan M.
    Reply

    Thank you so much for this podcast! Like usual, great content and I really appreciated the stories and examples, as well as the differentiation between the application points of this idea. To Joel specifically, THANK YOU. I have desperately needed someone to verbalize the things you said. I have a similar religious background and other nodes in the system running that have left me incredibly susceptible to the underlying belief that I am fundamentally bad. And so critical feedback has always internally felt warranted, like a continued confirmation of my unworthiness. (I didn’t even realize how deeply this was embedded in me until reading Beatrice Chestnut’s book. When I read the section on Social Fours I literally wept. I have such a focus on shame, inferiority, self-abasement, and suffering that to assume every piece of feedback is inherently true just furthers my spiral of self hatred, rather than working towards positivity and empowerment.) And yet externally I think I come across as unwilling to take feedback because it all feels threatening and like an attack. And even in writing this I’m seeing some prideful humility mixed in with all of this and, wow, ya good stuff to think about.

    (I also appreciate that you guys did that drinking podcast so that I’m constantly checking in with myself to make sure that I am not making you guys the newest gods in my life. Haha Not that that ruined your credibility by any means, but it was just a good reminder of your humanity.)

  • Kevin
    Reply

    Hi Antonia and Joel,

    One more “brief” comment on religion that defines people as bad. I love the story of the “woman caught in adultery” who is dragged in front of Jesus. The “accusers” tried to destroy her with their religion by saying “the law says to stone her” and asked Jesus what his judgment is. He wrote on the ground and said “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”. The accusers dropped their stones and left one-by-one “starting with the oldest one”. Then the woman was face-to-face with God – and the question to her was “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”. The woman realized the accusers had all left and now she was facing another person she expected to accuse her. The last accuser said, “Neither do I condemn you.” I love the thought that the one who wrote the law with his finger on the ground didn’t write it to destroy people. Even the accusers seeing what he wrote had the opportunity to walk into a new future. That, in a nutshell is my story. I let my accusers condemn me until I got face-to-face with God and he told me “Let’s get rid of all of your accusers, starting with the oldest one, then let’s talk about you and me”. Realizing I was face-to-face with love instead of condemnation, I saw a different me. You guys helped me in the journey of seeing how I’m designed. And realizing God is not the condemner , but the blesser opened a “feedback door” that has been a great help! Thanks!

    • Suzie
      Reply

      Great job Kevin, describing the God of Love, who IS love. I appreciate your comments, especially the “I forgive you for offending Christians – we deserve it.” SO TRUE!

  • Kevin
    Reply

    Hi Antonia and Joel,

    Great podcast! I enjoy listening and get a lot out of what you guys present. I struggle with some of the content as a true INTP should :). Full disclosure – I’m “still a Christian” after having had the betrayal experiences so many have had in “religion”. Being an INTP who is seeking “the truth” relentlessly – I was able to hang on to “what’s true” regardless of the labels people used or how they misrepresented truth. INTP’s can see what’s true and hang on to it regardless of anything. So my INTP journey has been seeking the truth through my experiences of betrayal, failure, addiction, guilt, shame, depression, etc. – a real life. I also love “logical fallacies” since they are great tools for showing how people deflect truth through trickery and deception. I can relate to Joel’s experience in religion which tries to define people as inherently bad. However, my journey through as an INTP truth seeker has kept me focused on an identity which says I was designed by love which resulted in so much inherent goodness that I haven’t yet fathomed “how good I am”. I can’t see “the true me” as well as the designer sees the true me – unless the designer teaches me who I am. What voices I listen to and what words I receive into my core being about who I am have a so much power to direct my life. Words are so powerful – spoken words that are heard. Logical fallacies help illustrate truth. One common fallacy is ad hominem – “against the man”. This fallacy discredits truth sources by demonizing the person. Many have used this fallacy to take a broad brush and discredit entire cultures, nations, etc.. I could have used ad hominem on God many times by saying, “I can’t accept a God who would allow that to happen to me”. In other words, God can’t be good based on my experience. We can use the same ad hominem attack on anyone. It works great in politics. Another logical fallacy is “straw man” – attacking a position the opponent doesn’t really hold. I could have used “straw man” against God as many do by attacking him for positions he doesn’t really hold. Another logical fallacy is “false dilemma / false dichotomy” – limiting options to two when in fact there are more to choose from. “God can’t be good because X happened” is a great example of false dilemma. In my journey out of addiction I heard other addicts tell their stories. One I love is the addict who answered the “how did you get free from . . . ” question with “do everything and don’t let anything stop you”. I love Brene Brown’s story that her research showed truth she couldn’t accept as true so she went into counseling and spent years seeking and soul searching – only to discover her research was truth. In my journey I also had to get into counseling before I saw what the emotions tied to my identity were “linked to” and what lies I believed because of the words spoken over me. When I saw the lie and why it was a lie – I could then see the options of choice I had to choose the truth instead. Then the foundation of my life (who I thought I was) changed. When the foundation changed – everything changed. Part of my journey has been learning how I was designed. You guys have helped me see my INTP preferences and “who is in the car”. That’s so cool to see how I was designed and that it’s an awesome design from a designer called LOVE – because that’s “who he is”. Thanks again for all you guys do. I forgive you for offending Christians – we deserve it.

  • Amy Francis
    Reply

    Serious comment now:
    Joel, I especially resonate with what you shared, probably because there are enough similarities between our temperaments and similar ideologies that we internalized in unhealthy ways. As I process this podcast, and where I struggle with letting others define me, I’m beginning to see how major seasons of my life were defined by how I dealt with this sense that I am less worthy than others, and coming up against what seemed like impossible demands for perfection put on me by society. In my early years I dealt with it by trying to become invisible. In my youth and early twenties it became a mixture of ethical perfectionism with frequent moments of self-hatred and being really hard on myself that I wasn’t “better.” I see these patterns playing out still, to a lesser degree of intensity, and I want to take more time to process those earlier memories.
    Something that’s recently come up for me around boundaries, as I mentioned, is I find it hard to stand in my own sense of identity and integrity when I’m around certain others, especially if they appear to me to “have it all together.” Sometimes I’m even hesitant to talk about things I’m passionate about with people because they might not be into it. I really try to prevent the risk of being called out. I think there are some aspects of myself that I need to accept, own and show more respect, even though they deviate from the norm. Instead, I sort of subconsciously expect to receive unconditional acceptance and validation from other people. The results I keep getting are confusion around my real convictions and desires, sort of like an energy of insecurity trying to pull me in an inauthentic direction.
    These were some initial reflections that came out of this podcast and it’s opened up an avenue for me to do inner work, hopefully learn about unhealthy self-beliefs and become better at honouring my authentic self. I’ve wanted to do deeper healing work and I can already tell this will be really helpful in moving that agenda forward. Thanks both of you!

  • Amy Francis
    Reply

    Antonia, I appreciate your use of big words and I think the universe agrees with me on this one.

  • Donna
    Reply

    Good topic! I am a recovering perfectionist so I always get defensive when I’m given constructive feedback, especially when it comes from those closest to me. This podcast was very helpful and I feel that it has opened my mind up to deal with feedback in a positive way, even if the feedback may not be on point, as Antonia brought up, there is something in the way I’m presenting myself that is being interpreted as bad behavior.

  • Amy
    Reply

    Hi Antonia and Joel! Thanks for all you do…your work and learning about your lives continues to be of ongoing benefit to me.

    The thing that came to mind when I listened to this podcast was the labeling of behavior as good or bad. One reason our communication isn’t as effective as it could be is because “good” and “bad” are judgments. When we’re on the receiving end of a judgment, it is natural to throw up whatever defenses we have in our arsenal instead of seeking a win-win resolution to the problem or finding a more prudent way of getting our needs met. When we are on the giving end, we may feel superior for a while, but if we’re conscious enough, mature enough, and interested in potentially adjusting ourselves when we learn that someone is making themselves miserable in response to OUR behavior, we won’t feel okay in that superior, separate place for long, either.

    A while back, I came across one of Pia Mellody’s books in a used bookstore and her work on boundaries has been of tremendous help to me in understanding this dynamic. It’s similar to (and expands upon) the principles of Marshall Rosenberg’s Nonviolent Communication. The talking boundary, for example, described on this card shows how to express what is going on and make a request for change in a non-judgmental way:

    https://goo.gl/images/yTh7t2

    In doing this, we are taking responsibility for how we feel and for what we decide to do. If a tu quoque is attempted anyway, it could be an invitation to include both sides…”Okay, what did YOU tell yourself about what I did (back then), how are YOU feeling about that, and what would YOU like to request of me (now), etc.?”

    It may take a little practice, but it sure seems like a more loving and harmonious way to potentially get everyone’s needs met. 🙂

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