Podcast – Episode 0230 – Developing Thinking As A Co-Pilot (IxTJ & ExTP Types)

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In this episode, Joel and Antonia talk about developing thinking as an ISTJ, INTJ, ENTP, or ESTP.

In this podcast you’ll find:



In this episode, Joel and Antonia talk about developing thinking as an ISTJ, INTJ, ENTP, or ESTP. #INTJ #ISTJ #ESTP #ENTP #MBTI

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Showing 21 comments
  • Sal

    Hi Alexis and other folks out here, re “developing Te in relation to your family or friends”, you may want to try reading the books of Arbinger Institute: Leadership and Self-deception and Anatomy of Peace.

    • Sal

      ‘Course can be used to develop Ti too and other stuff. Sorry too quick on typing.

  • Desi

    This was the single best PH podcast I have ever listened to (and I’ve listened to a lot of your podcasts). I loved the concreteness of it (conceptually speaking). Thank you for this!

    Desi INTJ

  • Alex Warren

    Excellent podcast although I can’t help but skip over the sections that don’t directly pertain to my personality. I’m an ENTP. I wanted to speak to this idea of being willing to use your Introverted intuition to make changes in your life. I feel like I’ve become known as being inconsistent. I evaluate things and make radical changes frequently and it drives people crazy. I know that we must be true to what we believe but if we are constantly evaluating and changing, at what point do we stop?

    • Aerin

      INTP here. As a Ti dominant, the answer to your question is an unequivocal ‘never.’ Why set yourself up for short term or even lifelong harm? The difference between you and I is that I will evaluate before I jump. It doesn’t drive anyone crazy because the gear changes happen in my mind before I act. My weakness is not exploring/taking risks as often as you do and yours is to evaluate when it could potentially be too late. I need to speed up. You need to slow down. Now where can I get myself an ENTP around these parts? 🙂

  • Alexis Johnson

    Hi there,
    I’m an INTJ, and PH has really helped me develop a system that works for me; I’ve stopped just thinking of ideas, and I’m actually accomplishing them.

    The best advice I’ve gleaned from PH and experience are:

    – Read Getting Things Done and other productivity books, but actually do something besides read productivity books. (If I listen to a podcast or read an article I like, I create a mini project with action items for myself to do).

    – Create a place to keep ideas that pop into your mind. I use Evernote, and any time I get an idea (a gift for my husband, a random item to pack, a classroom idea) I leave myself a note to reference when the date arrives. Then when the event comes, I’ve had a year of ruminating and I feel prepared. I don’t need to rely on Sensation to think of a great gift off the cuff.

    -If a task takes 2 minutes or less, just do it now.

    – Set meet-ups with people regularly, about 2 times a week or more. Older people especially are a great resource, don’t let their expertise go to waste.

    – Decision fatigue is a true problem for me by the end of the day. Make every decision the night before if possible (especially the boring monotonous ones). What to wear, what to eat, what time to leave. That leaves more energy for creative decisions.

    – I hate doing chores and cleaning. But putting on a podcast while I do chores makes it much more bearable.

    – Nothing sucks me into a loop faster than failing. When I do something and I fail, I suddenly start saying I’m a failure. It becomes about me and not about the project. The best way to get out is to bring metrics back into the equation. As soon as I bring numbers back in, then I’m out of the loop.

    Those are some ways I’ve developed Te. It’s still a bit of a one-trick-pony for me (notice these are mostly introverted activities). But developing Effectiveness has certainly moved the needle.

    I’m still struggling a little when it comes to family and friends. I haven’t gotten to the point where I can lead them or implement a system without them getting offended 50% of the time.

    -Any suggestions for developing Te in relation to your family or friends?

  • Christine

    May I comment on the food/weight/exercise example above? As an INTJ, I did successfully make an eating and exercise plan that got me to, and helped me maintain, a healthy weight. I was very pleased to hear that it turns out I used my Te Effectiveness to achieve this. As far as going overboard on binge eating and calorie counting, etc., would that not be letting your Se 3-year-old take over, and drive the car, not filtering it through your co-pilot of Effectiveness? I did have to watch that myself, and it turns out I used Effectiveness and caught myself sometimes going down an extreme road. Te helped me get back to a healthier path.

    • Antonia Dodge

      I would imagine that falling into that particular struggle would far more likely be a manifestation of 3 Year Old Se, not Co-Pilot Te.


  • John

    Pretty good! Been waiting like a year to hear more of Antonia talking about developing Ti copilot so I admit I am sad it’s not like, 45 minutes of that. But I felt Joel had some incredibly good insights on Ti in this episode that were also very helpful so while this was short and sweet and I want more Entp development advice it was really well done.

    Is it really as bad for every type as it is for Ti aux? I heard Antonia say “think about the thought and then think, is this going to hold up to scrutiny?” And I was like, fuck. I don’t even have to THINK about the idea? Yeah I don’t, she is right. I just have to CONSIDER is it GOING to hold up to scrutiny and I immediately know it won’t. It’s like my ideas have extracellular markers on them showing my brain they are terrible ideas but but … but!

    All I gotta do is look for half a second and it’s like, great. There goes THAT relationship.


    • Antonia Dodge

      I think this is why really gorgeously crafted questions become more intriguing than answers for Ti.


      p.s. Someone else commented that we spent more time on Te, which I didn’t realize until they said it. My apologies it was ‘short but sweet’.

  • Sophia Hardy

    Hi Antonia and Joel,

    Big fan of the podcast and first time commenting on one of the episodes, so hi! I wanted to reach out to to the two of you on this episode in regard to how ExTPs can develop their auxiliary function. I am an ENTP woman who is pretty early in her career and about 6 years into learning about MBTI and type development.

    As I feel like ENTP women often are prone to do earlier in their life than men of our type, I have spent a lot of time learning and reflecting on developing my Fe function, due to external/societal pressures and other factors. I have more than once found myself in one of those awful Ne-Fe loops and have never really looked to developing my auxiliary, Ti, as a solution until I heard this most recent podcast. I want to make sure my take-away as how to develop it best from what you said was interpreted on my end correctly:

    The best way to develop Ti is to dwell on our opinions, values and beliefs and really suss out if we truly hold those thoughts independent of external ideologies/people/etc.in our life that may be altering them? A daunting task to take on but I think I understand how to do it, if that is correct.

    I would love any suggestions as to possibly where best to start this practice in our daily lives. It seems difficult to suss out where to begin.

    • Antonia Dodge

      I truly sympathize. For me, I went back to beliefs I had never questioned and took for granted. Some I kept (they were honest for me), and others I grappled with and eventually replaced.

      What is something you’ve truly never questioned? Identify one of those, and open Pandora’s Box.

      Also – the book Prometheus Rising by Robert Anton Wilson (particularly the first half) was a very helpful for me.

      Good luck. 🙂


  • Kate

    I have LOVED this series on developing your co-pilot… all FOUR of the last episodes! I have listened, rapt and intent, at your descriptions of how to WORK ON these functions. It struck me though that this also describes some of the people in my network with a particular function as a DRIVER, but UNHEALTHY. Is that possible? It’s not a given that what you have as a driver is automatically HEALTHY, right?

    Something about your descriptions of the cognitive functions in terms of development/improvement resonated with me in a way it hadn’t before… THANKS!

  • Nicole


    I am bilingual and when I take the personality test in english iam a INFT-P and in spanish I am a ENFT-P. Does this mean I am 2 people? How do i work with the two results?

  • Fleur

    Hi guys,

    Thank you for this podcast. As an INTJ it makes sense to me to break down a goal into achievable tasks and mark your success.

    However, I feel let down by the fact that you use weight loss as a goal. I actually fell in the trap of “yeah, it would be nice to lose a few pounds and track my nutrients… for my health”. I ended up with binge eating disorder, totally obsessed with calories and exercise and losing my period. Whereas I do agree that health is a legitimate goal, weight (or body shape) is not the way to measure it. If I learnt something about this experience is that diets are not something I should mess around with. I now have more of a “taking care of myself” approach rather than a “punish and restrict”.

    Why not recommend another goal like learning a language? Because we are so much more than just what we look like.

    Peace and love <3

    • Antonia Dodge

      It was an example, not a directive. If that very specific way of doing something didn’t work for you then you already have test-iterated it for effectiveness. In pass/fail criteria was a ‘fail’ for you. That doesn’t mean all Te users will experience it the same way. The important thing is the principle of how Te works.


    • kate

      I had the same reaction! A food/weight exercise for a type that has a Sensation 3yo. Ugh.

      • Antonia Dodge

        While I’m not insisting it was the best example (quite honestly, it was off the cuff as many of our examples are), the first question that comes up for me when I see this feedback is: was this a truly bad example, or was it an uncomfortable example for some in the audience. It’s easy to conflate them, but they aren’t the same thing. That said, it’s a bit of a black swan. Anyone not uncomfortable isn’t going to leave feedback.


        • Aisha

          I was not uncomfortable when I listened to this example (I am an INTJ) but I agree that it was a poor, ineffective example purely because weight loss is far more likely to elicit strong emotional responses rather than weak or neutral emotional responses. After all, the purpose of the example is to show *how* to put Te into use as a copilot rather than to talk about health outcomes which, frankly, is territory filled with landmines given the fact that is very difficult for people, in general, to control health outcomes.

          I used to teach university level technology design courses and I made a point of never using examples for app development that risked triggering strong negative responses that got in the way of learning. This isn’t to say that I would never include examples of, for instance, weight loss or health outcome app dev in the classroom but, instead, I wouldn’t tie those examples to learning a new concept and I would give adequate warning (e.g., on the syllabus) when that topic would be the central topic of the day’s lecture/activities. Obviously, this meant disciplining myself to have good neutral examples in mind and to be aware of emotional landmine examples such that I could lead discussion away from them when those landmines were not going to aid learning.

          Just a heads up.

          Otherwise, I’ve been loving this series of podcasts in a huge way and found the info in this particular podcast A++.

          All the best and keep up the great work!

          • Antonia Dodge

            Thank you – I appreciate the positive feedback about the series. As off-the-cuff ENxPs we frequently (unintentionally and otherwise) touch on things that are triggering. I’m actually leaning into it. As long as it’s honest and accurate (Ti), my growth path is to keep going. Of course, that does mean we’ll get feedback that people don’t always like it which I have to accept as a consequence.

            Thanks for being part of our community. 🙂


  • Rachel Kay

    ENTJ here – and while I enjoyed the episode for my type (developing Ni), I have to applaud you even more for the Te-as-copilot episode. I’ve NEVER heard anyone talk about Te as you have, but it beautifully aligns with what I feel Te is to me:

    – Interface people and systems (systems and processes to get results in the world).
    – Constantly figuring out failure points (and doing so directly) with self, people, and things.
    – …so addicted to feedback [on metrics] that whatever personal hit you may take is inconsequential.
    – The idea of “pre-failing,” resonates with my logic. There’s no way I can expect to be good at something in the beginning. To expect otherwise would defy logic. I expect to be bad at THE THING.
    – Using the above to NOT create a synthetic self esteem, knowing that I will be bad at things, and that doesn’t reflect my worth as a person.
    – Lack of self-doubt because self esteem is not built on failed ventures.
    – Leading with how things get built, and making things in the outside world and saying “yeah, that’s how you move the needle.”
    – Use Fi to determine if the thing your building is in alignment with your values.
    – Focus on feedback about the thing you built, not feedback on your person, so there’s no ego hit.
    – “Time as a resource.”
    – “An orchestra with resources.”

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