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In this episode, Joel and Antonia talk about developing sensing as an ISFP, ISTP, ESFJ, or ESTJ.

In this podcast you’ll find:

  • Car Model article
  • Car Model Podcast
  • Why We Resist Developing The Co-Pilot In Our Personality
  • ISFPs and ISTPs have Extraverted Sensing as their copilot – “Sensation”
  • ESFJs and ESTJs have Introverted Sensing as their copilot – “Memory”
  • These types lead with a decision-making function:
    • ISFPs Driver is Introverted Feeling (Fi)
    • ISTPs Driver is Introverted Thinking (Ti)
    • ESFJs Driver is Extraverted Feeling (Fe)
    • ESTJs Driver is Extraverted Thinking (Te)
  • These are all Judging or decision-making functions.
  • To be a rounded our person, you need a learning or perceiving process to gather data and make better decisions.
  • The Copilot is always the opposite attitude of your Driver
  • If you are an Introvert your dominant function is introverted, so your Copilot is extraverted
  • If you are an Extravert, your dominant function is extraverted, so your Copilot is introverted.
  • Our copilot process can become a one trick pony if we only use it randomly.
  • ISFP & ISTP Copilot is Extraverted Sensing
    • We call it Sensation
    • 5 Senses plus
    • The primary way these types experience the world.
    • Very realistic. Right here. Right now.
    • The verifiable is more reliable.
    • “Seeing is believing.”
    • People who use this as a dominant process seem more grounded and realistic.
    • They will take in info as long as they can directly interact with it.
    • When Sensation is a Copilot process, it ends up supporting the conclusions the Driver has already arrived at.
    • ISTPs and ISFPs take a long time to come to a conclusion, so it is labor intensive when they have to reevaluate.
    • ISPs can be a little sensitive about contradicting info.
    • Growth is on the other side of taking in new info and reevaluating who you think you are.
    • ISFPs feel challenged about their convictions when they use their copilot.
    • ISTPs feel their competencies challenged when they use their copilot.
    • To avoid having their convictions or competencies challenged, ISPs will bypass their copilot and choose to go to their other introverted process – Introverted Intuition – “Perspectives” (Ni)
    • Ni gives them the ability to imagine the world they prefer to believe in.
    • ISPs don’t get the full spectrum of their natural talents when they do this.
    • If the ISP is finding their life is becoming too complicated, it is because they are avoiding their copilot of Sensation.
    • Sensation helps to pare things down to their fundamentals and get into action.
    • It gets ISPs ahead of challenges instead of feeling like they are perpetually playing catch up.
    • ISPs may even look like Judgers when they are using their Copilot to respond quickly to problems and keep things organized.
    • Se helps them become realistic and objective.
    • ISPs may experience cognitive dissonance when they are avoiding something they don’t want to see.
    • Their self-esteem takes a hit because they don’t know if they see reality as it is or ignoring info their senses are bringing in.
    • We all use our strengths to help us determine our self-esteem.
    • ISPs who choose fantasy over reality struggle to maintain a healthy self-esteem.
    • Sensation helps them get into art, performance, and adrenaline-inducing activities.
    • A lot of ISPs struggle with paranoia or anxiety due to giving preference to their tertiary cognitive function of Introverted Intuition
    • ISPs need to quiet their minds by getting into their body thru the copilot.
    • Instead of projecting your viewpoints onto the world and finding info that fits that narrative, Sensation helps the ISP enter the world with open eyes and mind then create meaning afterward.
    • We can make up anything in our minds and then trick ourselves to see what we want to see.
    • Sensation can help you pick up people’s facial expressions and body language.
    • Gather that info then reach conclusions.
    • Don’t reach conclusions first then look for evidence that you are right.
    • ISPs have an interesting relationship with energy.
    • Without the copilot, energy is finite.
    • With the copilot, energy is abundant.
    • Extraverted activity. Kinesthetic action. Movement. Adrenaline.
    • A well-developed copilot can burn long and hot.
    • Introverted time is still needed to regenerate your batteries, but with development, ISPs introverted part can start relying on the extraverted part for energy.
    • Sensation is fun! It enjoys adrenaline and loves fun physical activities.
    • ISPs can be the life of the party if they have developed their copilot well.
  • Exercise:
    • The #1 thing you can do to build sensation is to become used to handling challenges, problems, tasks and daily routines as they come to you.
    • Be highly responsive.
    • Turn your voicemail off for a full week and only allow yourself to answer phone calls in real time.
    • Tell everyone you are only taking calls for a week.
    • Don’t text. You have to call and have an energetic interchange with the other person.
    • You can pick up better auditory detail when speaking with someone.
    • Visit people and physically be in their space, which prevents you from putting stuff off.
    • It gets you into action instead of kicking the can down the road.
    • It also reminds you how important it is to engage with another human being instead of speculating on what is going on for them.
    • Don’t censor the information. Take in everything. Don’t pick and choose what you want to see.
    • You will want to preserve something in your driver (Identity, ego, conscience, integrity)
    • You may take in info that changes the game for you.
    • ESFJ Driver is Extraverted Feeling – “Harmony”
    • ESTJ Driver is Extraverted Thinking – “Effectiveness”
    • Their copilot is Introverted Sensing – “Memory”
    • They understand their world by looking at past experiences and determining value based on that.
    • Post processing the experiences and reflecting upon them.
    • ESJs sometimes tend to marginalize their copilot because it is frustrating when it removes options from the table.
    • If the ESJ has had a painful past, they may run from this process of reviewing the past and its influences.
    • Sometimes there is trauma in the past.
    • Sometimes there are bad decisions that we have made.
    • ESJs may tend to want to open new loops and keep themselves distracted.
    • Memory requires ESJs to slow down.
    • When we go into our Memory process, we are compelled to find the true shape of ourselves based on memories.
    • Memory gives ESJs the actual shape of their soul and what their past means to them.
    • ESJs 10 yr old process is Extraverted Intuition – “Exploration” (Ne).
    • Exploration is about “what if” questions.
    • Memory is about what someone knows to be true based on previous experience.
    • How have you been molded to be the person you are today?
    • Si helps ESJs to contain energy and make it sustainable.
    • Because Memory allows you to understand who you are based on past experiences, it also encourages ESJs to be more careful with other people.
    • We are all a product of our past.
    • Memory is the most adaptable cognitive function over time.
    • Memory helps you build skill and remember to adapt and give a little instead of making demands.
    • What do I know about this person’s character that I can rely on?
    • How does that affect the future?
    • Acceptance of things that can’t be changed and the ability to move on.
    • Memory for ESJs helps them:
    • Be more responsible in their behavior
    • Get in touch with the soul
    • Be more reliable
    • Accept what can’t change
    • Adapt to new situations
    • Less cavalier
    • Manage energy over time
  • Exercise:
    • Memory is about rumination
    • Find a quiet space and remove any unexpected distractions.
    • Memory doesn’t need as much sensory deprivation as “Perspectives”
    • Set aside an hour.
    • Go into your past, think about a peak experience (good, bad, or neutral).
    • “How did this experience forge who I am now?”
    • Review the memory fully.
    • Take a journal and write down all the new connections you made as a result of this exercise.
    • Over time you will find yourself doing this throughout the day.
    • It reminds you that other people have similar memories which have forged them. This helps you come from a more compassionate place.
    • Ask people about their past. Where did they come from?
    • Increase your understanding of others by asking about their past.
    • Memory is often tied to physical objects.
    • Find something you have kept from the past and engage with it.
    • What memories come up attached to that item?
    • If you find yourself with to-do items popping up, try to stay focused on the memory.
    • Don’t censor anything that comes up.
  • You can’t learn from a mistake you refuse to acknowledge.
  • For all the types that have a perceiving Copilot, don’t censor anything that comes up.
  • It will help you create the life you want instead of the synthetic life you may have.
  • ISPs need to speed up and get into action and allow sensory info to come in unfiltered.
  • ESJs need to slow down and get in touch with their true self – unfiltered.


  • Megan
    • Megan
    • May 29, 2021 at 3:24 pm

    I’m a ESFJ. Your recommended
    exercise was meditation of past memories to determine how they shaped us into who we are today. I have multiple past tramas from childhood that are buried so deep I can’t remember them. Also, I had 2 major strokes in my 20’s causing permanent brain damage with further memory complications. At this point, I barely remember my childhood. Is this something I can still access on my own through meditation?

  • Julia
    • Julia
    • May 14, 2021 at 3:51 am

    Hi Antonia and Joel,

    I am not entirely sure which podcast to leave this question as it relates to several including the part two one about respecting your ten year old process (that will be #383) I am eagerly awaiting for next week. After listen through the part 1 (#382) and getting curious about what your advice would be for ten year old perspectives I was searching through the older podcasts and ran across this series and decided to take a listen through both to get perspective tips for someone trying to learn how to use it better and to do a refresh on co-pilot development advice which for me is extraverted sensing.

    I was hoping to get some advice on additional exercises to work on or modifications to the one you suggested but it seems that ISTPs are one of the least likely types to comment. I see the reasoning behind the exercise (turning off voice mail/text and answering everything immediately via phone or in person so as to deal with things as they come and in a more personal way) and yes do find I operate better in that or equivalent modes and was hoping for some additional areas of my life to apply similar kinds of exercises to continue to build skill and hopefully find one that resonated a bit better.

    The question that came up for me, however, that was enough to prompt a post actually related to the podcast before this regarding building intuition skills. In the exercise for extraverted intuition you talked about using a ritual of practicing being joyful (getting up, opening your arms and smiling to the ceiling) as a way to calm down and respect the 10 year old introverted sensing function and that made be wonder if you had any idea of what would be a similar activity to help out the 10 year old introverted intuition so that I could focus more on my extraverted sense co-pilot.

    Most of your advice for developing extraverted sensation focused on paying attention to the outside world, taking information without filtered and taking action now on tasks as well as getting into motion…which while all great advice, all also necessitates pushing aside and ignoring the 10 year old to focus on what the co-pilot is trying to do. Thinking back on times and activities where I have really felt like my driver and co-pilot were working together effectively and I get into or close to a flow state, it is times where I essentially end up overwhelming both of them with things to do so that the 10 year old just doesn’t come into play. Windsurfing and kayaking (sports I use to do a lot) are both great for this as there is some much external info you have to pay attention to (wind and water that are always changing that you have to read all the subtle clues in constantly in them and then all the things you have to do with yourself and your gear at the same time) and think about without really thinking about (so more I guess really just observing and knowing the state of everything going on) and things like wind gusts, waves and river features to act on as soon as they come up without consciously taking the time to think about and decide to do first. Other sports with a lot of constantly changing action going on that you have to monitor and respond to almost instinctively work as well or non-sport situations that have lots of immediate unplanned deadlines and decision points you hit with little to know warning and that are urgent/important enough to require ignoring the 10-year old.

    While I really like and now am thinking I need to more actively need to be seeking out these kinds of situations again, the advice I am looking is how to accomplish something similar in less intense situations. How to get my driver and co-pilot to start working together in more marginal conditions. Times when it isn’t survival, performance or mission critical to just completely shut out the ten year old, but perhaps a way to calm down and/or respect the 10 year old so that I can use my co-pilot more effectively in more mundane times as well rather than just forcibly ignoring them (which seems like would have other long term detrimental solutions if I just try a willpower solution to try to force myself to ‘be present’ and/or just focus on the now…which never actually works anyway if I am consciously trying to accomplish either).

  • Karen
    • Karen
    • June 17, 2018 at 7:01 am

    I have been awaiting ‘my’ INFJ podcast with excitement and trepidation.Your series of podcasts on developing the co-pilot function have increased my understanding of and motivation to develop my Extroverted Feeling function, but I was frankly afraid of what you might suggest this required me to do!
    Well, I am more than pleased with ‘my’ podcast – released on my birthday to boot!
    I really feel motivated by the goal of creating good ‘containers’ for others to be able to hear truths that might help them.
    I can see where I sometimes judge people and try to correct them, instead of connecting with them first, and how this is a defence mechanism for when I feel vulnerable.
    I can also see where I do sometimes lead with empathy instead, and become able to be a change maker, and to help people.
    I feel a sense of relief when I think about making good boundaries and revealing more of myself, so that I will ‘have my own back’.
    Thanks for expressing so clearly what INFJ goals can look like, how I already have talents (and maybe some skills) that I can use, and how choosing to develop these will mean I can get more of what I really want.
    I have found this very positive, affirming and motivating.

  • Antonia Dodge
    • Antonia Dodge
    • June 16, 2018 at 5:16 pm

    So glad we’ve been able to be part of your growth journey. <3


  • Danny
    • Danny
    • June 15, 2018 at 8:05 pm

    My wife and I have contacted you a couple of times each since discovering your fantastic podcast. Each time we’ve loved the direct feedback that you guys give when you can – it makes each episode we listen feel personal.

    I first commented on your INFP podcast on YouTube years ago, when I was at one of my lowest points. Joel and I exchanged comments that are still there. I discovered that I had ADHD which made a huge difference in my personal development. I also was able to clarify that I am an INFJ and was mistyping myself.

    My wife in an ENFP and this podcast felt like it was developed as a personal favor to us. We are both struggling in our development – and since that low time when I first encountered your podcast, we are now business owners with a LOT on our plate. And with both of us being stuck in our individual loops, we have so much work to do to be the people we need to be within this exciting new life we’re seeing grow around us (almost in spite of us). As I was back in the “low time” I have isolated myself to the point of receiving disability, crippling my Fe – and my wife resists the inner work that her Fi needs. To have these issues so masterfully laid out for us was a gift. I have listened to this episode three times already – my wife has not yet had the time, though I have raved about it (probably to the point of annoyance).

    I just wanted to say that you guys are incredible and are a regular part of our weekly routines. We are excited to dig deeper with your other content. You two are a powerful resource. Please don’t stop helping people clarify themselves. Thank you, thank you, thank you BOTH (all – because I know lots more work goes into all of this) for this wonderful episode and valuable podcast!

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