Podcast – Episode 0354 – Social Challenges NT Women Face – Part 2 (INTJ – INTP – ENTP – ENTJ)

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In this episode, Joel talks with Antonia and Melissa Harris (Personality Hacker’s Profiling Coach) about the personal challenges they both face as NT women (ENTP and INTJ).

 

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Showing 19 comments
  • Shawn Caruthers
    Reply

    Hi Melissa and Antonia! This was an excellent podcast. I have experience with having conversations with you Melissa and have definitely noticed that you are more responsive rather than initiating when it comes to conversations with women. You are very careful with me even though I don’t prefer you to be ( smiles ). I love listening and problem solving too but I I thank you so much for being a wonderful listener and a friend who gives useful feedback. Also thanks Antonia and Joel for the education you’ve provided to us all.
    – ISFP Shawn Caruthers ( formerly Thompson)

  • Aubrey Stech
    Reply

    This episode definitely fit into the general theme of feeling seen and celebrated by PH. I often feel like 1. not many people get me and 2. those who do see more of who I am like me despite who I am, not for who I am. Listening to Antonia and Melissa was a great reminder that me trying to ‘fit in’ to the norms (especially gender norms) is just a disservice to me and the people around me. But even then, the work NT women have to do to relate to others is so much hidden work. Instead of just sharing thoughts with others, I need to translate my thoughts into laments terms that can me received and interpreted. And yes, it’s a lot of work.

    Along with that work though comes an opportunity to gamify how to interact with others, as Melissa was getting at. INTJs do so well one-on-one. People are fascinating. Using the information they share with us as data points to build a framework of rules inside our own brains of how they think can be so fun, and definitely make up for lack of Fe by guessing what they want to be asked as a way to facilitate the conversation. But in a group setting, absolutely not. It doesn’t matter how ‘in’ the group you are, moving past 3 or 4 people in a group is the threshold that switches us from being a participant to an audience member.

    After listening to this episode, I do regret that i didn’t sign up for the NT women workshop. I think part of the reason I did not sign up was because as a gay woman, my radar for gender norms is totally different. I am way less concerned about adapting or faking it to fit gender norms or feeling ‘feminine.’ I almost embrace not fitting them, and probably embrace resisting them to some extent.

    Anyway, thank you. I am so truly grateful for these conversations and normalizing an experience that is so rare. I often forget that people can see the intersection of my marginalized identities, and your words have reminded me how to hold space for myself and that no matter how much of an outcast I feel I am, I am not alone.

  • Adrienn
    Reply

    Hello there 🙂 ENTJ woman here, i am 28 and i am listening to your podcasts from Hungary for like 3 years now i believe. In the begining of my journey I used to HATE my type, like really, I did the test dozenz of times just to get enother result 🙃 of course I never get else. And so a lot of things happened and now I am a bit more comfortable with it but still these things oh my god – like you have no idea how threatened I feel by not being this feeler and nurturing women, – little side information that I am a dancer which is also something I used to be sad about that no ENTJ career or job is connected to art, but again I own a dance school, I am a teacher and I also do events so I guess I found my thing in it without me knowing. So back to being a woman here, wow I see that the scene is awarding these feminin energy and the people see woman dancers more like the godes Aphrodite or Demeter and I am a verrrry strong Artemis / Athene woman. I scare away a lot of people, by just being me and the blending need used to be so strong. I had short hair and now I try to maintain more feminin vibe so I am growing it longer and I try to soften my energy, just how Antonia said I have this energy that enters the room before me. I used to / and I still do but I work in it a lot – hurt peoply by just being logical! And ahw gosh its so exhausting to constantly work on being okay with people one point I had like very strong social anxiety. And the best part I that I have a husband and he is the love of my life he is just my accepnatnce towards myself he is an INFP you think I am kidding right we are so perfect together. But all I feel is that I can not have a good fulfiling conversation with ANYONE, NO ONE LITERALLY NO ONE but him – and my threapist. Oh gosh please if you know an ENTJ mother group – as I want to have kids one day and But this is a topic where i get terrified and one part of me says hell nooooo one part of me is like it could be nice and i kinde want to – or just an NT female group where I can bond a little I would be so happy. Thank you for this 2 podcasts!

  • Leeann V Kirkbride
    Reply

    INTJ here. Really enjoyed this pair of podcasts…so much resonates. Just wondering at the comment on installment 1 of how communicating in a world largely comprised of SF’s can be very draining. I’m wondering how often E’s are misidentified as I’s or pushed into and acclimated to I behavior not because social interaction itself is taxing but because of the work involved in self-censoring and shifting perspectives in order to communicate. Always shifting to communicate on somebody else’s terms is exhausting. I imagine it would be exhausting for extroverts too. I’ve always described myself as a gregarious introvert. Where do you place a person energized by uncensored and unguarded communication with other NT’s but completely depleted by mundane interactions?

  • Poppy
    Reply

    Also an INTJ woman in Oregon, and I’m just out and out laughing at the motherhood conversation. I’m in my 40s now, but decided as a pre-teen that I never wanted to parent – and I’ve stuck to it. The social challenges of being an INTJ woman are just That. Much. Harder. without kids to ease those beginning friendships. It’s less the judgement from other women – although I suspect it’s been there on occasion – and more that they just don’t have any clue what I could possibly be doing with my life.

  • Karin V
    Reply

    I am INFP and when in a class or interesting conversation, philosofical debate I start saying : “ I don’t understand…” , an NT woman or even more likely an NT man will start explaining what has just been explained. Sure I think, (I used to say it out loud but i don’t do that anymore), I am not stupid , I understood so much already, but I think/(feel?) I have a question that is beyond what we’ve explored sofar, there are new questions that need to be resolved now that we have come this far in our thinking. I do not want to go back and be explained some boring facts that we know by now.
    Instead of regarding myself as a feeler- I am not so very interested in emotions – I thought I was a thinker, even more so than real thinkers. But I tested INFP again and again regardless what tests I took. Before I thought I would and could identify with NT women, but thanks to this podcast I know I am definitely not that kind of thinker. I am fysical even more that emotional, and I enjoyed pregnancy and motherhood because of the strange new knowledge that I gathered from the experience itself. I hated that my life was taken away from me ( my time) by spending hours with my kids and doing boring chores, but not more than going to school and learning stuff that didn’t fit to my interests or work that never met my life search for authenticity.
    This podcast helps me to understand that the NT quality is not against me though, but not yet how to get along with NT and work with their skills and mine. Just wonder if you could do an NF women episode too?

  • Ashley
    Reply

    Hey, INTJ here, kid of an INTJ mom, this latest episode was interesting as it both made sense yet not and my mom totally fits into the strange parenting category by teaching with asking questions and encouraging critical thinking as my sibling and I grew up. As for the making sense thing goes, the comments about pulling away from conversations with other women, essentially being alone in the crowd as there isn’t much to connect with and letting others lead the conversation topics until I can find out what they deem to be correct topics are totally things that I experience.
    I will say that when I was a child, I didn’t understand the whys of peoples’ reactions. I could see that they were upset, or taken aback or whatever else, but not the why. The fact that they’d leave the conversation or never talk to me again just reinforced that I wasn’t a “people” person. Not that I’d ever willingly seek out a group of kids to rope into a game anyways, my sibling did that. I was more, still am, alright with getting my fill of interaction and then leaving it at that, kind of like a cat. When I want it, it is sought, when I don’t, please don’t talk to me. Then hitting preteen stage, I gave up on social interactions, retreating into books and people watching.
    Understanding people, reading why their body language was changing, didn’t really become important till I got involved with horses and found myself needing to communicate with what seemed to be super stoic emotional bricks on legs. Turns out, horses are extremely emotional, communicative and intuitive. Upon being able to read them, then reading a human was much easier. Which helped with figuring out how to not be a social wrecking ball, stand-offish or intimidating.
    I still don’t like being in huge social settings unless it is my equally strange extended family that all prize the NT style of thinking.
    Now, why it didn’t make sense. Everyone has different priorities and things that they learn sooner as opposed to later. Emotional intelligence wasn’t a thing terribly prized by my family, critical/artistic thinking and self control is, and emotional intelligence is the box that gets pulled out of the closet when needed. This greatly impacted what was and was not classified as “normal” by me growing up, and still require reminders of as everyone else, outside my family, is strange. Conversing in the family is easy, outside of that, uh, make-up, latest fashion, sports? . . .let’s try history, science, music, art and current world solving. Thus, understanding people off of the get go? It doesn’t make sense to me.
    So there’s this strange divide. On one hand, the topics covered in the podcast were normal, where they were coming from was not, but they made sense or not, depending on the context.

  • IxTx?
    Reply

    Even though I’m male, I recognize many of the problems you describe in this series. Particularly shutting up about things that I know would, as you say, make everyone ” be ready to bring out the torches and pitchforks”. It’s probably a combination of my upbringing and the general Swedish conflict-averseness. I think Sweden as a country is somehow unusually Fe-heavy – quite strange, as we are known for industry and technology, and for being reserved.

    Online, the issue is solved by anonymity (which unfortunately is getting harder to achieve and less respected over time) – and make no mistake, I’m not talking about trolling, I write what I seriously think – but in reality I would, for example, rarely dare to talk about my thoughts about children which are very similar to Antonia’s and especially Melissa’s, although so much more so that I knew from young age that I would never want any. Despite “just” having to be the father in that case, not the mother.

    Anecdote: I once discussed my thoughts and feelings about children on an online forum, and got the answer “But you were a child yourself!”, whatever that would have to do with it – Years later I came up with the answer I should have given, had I been quick-witted enough: “Yes, but fortunately it’s something that passes with time”.

  • RJ
    Reply

    I sent an email after the first episode saying thanks and wow but after listening to the second episode (twice) I feel compelled to say it again. What a relief to listen to two NT women talk about life from this perspective. Laughed, amen’d, dropped jaw, got curious, may have shed a few judgment burdens about myself and society I’ve been carrying around. I appreciated Joel’s last question about what Antonia and Melissa would say to their younger self; my immature self took it all in. Reading the above comments remind me of my awkwardness and lack of interest in most social situations involving packs of women…unless I am in charge of them. I find even the sound of these packs of women confusing because I can’t hear myself think or know what I’m experiencing (even as the complexity of women’s minds can be inspiring). On the mother/kid topic, I have a strong affinity with children and am generous with affection and the mental awareness of feelings and knowing, but I can honestly say it’s really while learning is happening, minds are opening, and children are curious and perceiving when I engage. I do love to play because I’m pattern hunting, learning about learning. I appreciated the conversation that led to seeing this more clearly. I definitely want to fix problems and can listen deeply for answers within others as they describe the problem; def a super power as I feel their awkwardness, stuck minds, and pain. I am a terrible and impatient listener otherwise, though, so I also have a stockpile of prepared templates to help me at least be quiet. So much to consider or say but mostly, thanks! INTP woman here

  • Kate
    Reply

    30 year old INTP woman here, and I have never felt so “seen” as I did when listening to these last two episodes. Thank you!

    I have always felt like an outsider for the myriad of reasons you guys touched on, but I never specifically thought about my struggle with femininity as being a direct correlation to my NT. Now that I am aware of it it makes total sense, but I can’t help but wonder why this has never been a fully formed thought that has breached my consciousness in the last few years that I’ve really been exploring my type? Because really, it seems so obvious to me now.

    Thinking back on my childhood, I think I was around 8 when I caught onto society’s interpretation of gender roles. My best friend up until that point was a boy and we were inseparable. We had sleepovers every weekend and I think those stopped around that age, whether that was due to our parents no longer deeming co-ed sleepovers appropriate or kids starting to talk about “cooties,” I can’t be too sure.

    I assume the reason I haven’t consciously reconciled this part of myself is because I was so young when I started implementing these notions of femininity in order to assimilate into the world. It makes me wonder what ELSE is just chillin’ out in my subconscious, waiting to to be brought to light by someone spelling it out for me so clearly in a podcast. Whenever I feel like I’ve hit a roadblock in therapizing myself (as I like to call it), you guys give me more to consider 🙂

    I also really appreciated you guys discussing how NT’s show up in relationships. I suffer from a lot of guilt and wonder if that is a common theme among other NT women? Most of my guilt comes from knowing that I can’t bring emotion to the table the way Feelers can. And even though in nearly all of my relationships my logic and rationale is appreciated (if not sought out) when sorting through personal issues, that sense of guilt is still there that I can’t be the soft cuddly shoulder for them to cry on. And I don’t think I’m feeling guilty because I WANT to be that person for them, I’m feeling guilty that I don’t… All I want is for the people in my life to be happy and I want to help them, and I think it’s hard to reconcile how I want those things yet despise when I’m in a situation where I’m being asked for that kind of emotional support.

    I received a lot of validation in this episode reminding me that I don’t have to be all things to all people. I can be the friend to help figure out a solution, but it’s okay that I can’t also be the friend to tell you everything is going to be okay even when I know it might not work out. I’m interested if others would find it acceptable if I were to communicate to them the kind of support I can offer when necessary, or if that is a boundary that I realize within myself but don’t necessarily convey to others (here we go again, trying to maintain the social equilibrium and modify myself so as not make anyone else uncomfortable!)?

    Anyway, I have so many other points I’d love to comment on, but I’d be writing this comment all day and I have actual work I need to get back to! Thank you again for such an enlightening episode. I do hope you consider doing another on NT women (I’m unable to make the virtual event 🙁 ). I crave the kind of conversation I was able to experience between you two and it’s so reassuring to know that I’m not alone and there are other women out there I can connect with like that. And to all you NT women out there, come out come out wherever you are! As Antonia pointed out, I think we’ve accomplished blending in to maintain the social norm so well that we are now hiding from each other!

  • Desiree Mou
    Reply

    I am so looking forward to this podcast. I just listened to the first one and wanted to leave a comment before it slips down my list. As an INTJ and someone who came to motherhood at 40 I expect I’ll get a lot out of this one too, especially from the comments above.

    As for the first episode, I could go on for a long, long time about experiences you mentioned, Antonia, but instead I’ll just say I was amazed at how you summed up my experiences…with women, with men, with former workplaces, with organizations I belonged to, with that cult I somehow got tangled up with there some time ago… and now probably with my child and with other moms (you alluded to this in the first episode as well).

    Most of my life I’ve felt I was both too much and not enough. I always sought men out or at least they always seemed to feel comfortable around me. Which worked great for friendships, mostly, but if it promised to go further, I found that once the initial attraction wore off some of these men would be disappointed that I wasn’t…well…more like a woman (or their/society’s idea of a woman). I was told that I think too much, that I think more than any man they’ve ever met (sounds like a compliment but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t meant that way), and so on. So many comments about my brain and how it was an issue.

    Flip that and then there were the comments about how I should be more feeling—you talked about how people might say you’re self-censoring when you’re not—I was told I was not allowing my feelings… my ex-husband called me the ice queen (pretty sure this wasn’t meant as a compliment either). Oh how many self-help books, meditation classes, seminars on the feminine I attended to try to understand this elusive concept and break down what it looked like!

    Then the groups… oh my… for some reason after I left the field of forestry I found myself teaching, then facilitating at a university then I landed with an international group of facilitators. A group of men and women but definitely a sisterhood. How I loved the work and craved the connection but how hamstrung I felt. Despite the warm fuzzies of it all, despite all the talk of creating ‘safe spaces’ for our participants the corruption (and abuse in some cases, certainly abuse of power) was astounding… and of course I spoke up about my concerns but, well… I think we all know how that ends. Then again, I’d like to think that these days I *might* be a little more skillful about how I approached the whole thing. All in all though when you were describing the sisterhood and feeling outside that (episode 1) I alternated between laughing and feeling sad. You certainly struck a nerve.

    I believe I started off by saying I could go on and on but I wouldn’t, but I did. I enjoy the podcasts and I always leave with some things to think about and often a little boost along the lines of ‘maybe I’m actually okay’. But this one really went deep.

  • Lola
    Reply

    INTJ here. I am not a parent but I’ve spent my younger years taking care of other people’s children. In contrast to what was talked about on the podcast, I find myself loving babies the most and really disliking the stage when children start to talk and ask questions as this is when we begin to explain the world and instill values in earnest and there is most potential to ‘break’ them or damage them psychologically.
    I did get the impression from the conversation that there is maybe an element of executive functioning impairment present that is being assigned to being an INT- personality, that may in fact be coincidental. I’ve tested as INTJ many times (and once as INFJ) and while I recognise the challenges of difficulty relating to this feminine energy and being expected to embody it when I don’t, I do naturally have very strong ‘mommy’ energy which does not seem to be a natural part of an INTJ profile. If I’m honest, I’m probably inclined to believe in Myers Briggs types as much as in astrological signs. There is something there, but broad brush strokes, rather than a precise map of an individual’s personality.
    Still, it’s very interesting to hear from the perspectives we don’t hear from all that often. Thank you!

  • Jen
    Reply

    I really relate as an INFP to the challenges of jumping into conversation with groups of women. Leading with Fi means that I’m often vibe-deaf in groups, when I’m not actively trying to put a stop to a vibe that my Fi tells me is simply wrong, such as cruel gossip. As you might imagine, this doesn’t go over well. My INTP guy friend with inferior Fe is often more adept at discerning and maintaining the vibe than I am.

    As a girl, I found other girls and their fascination with social entanglements confusing and much preferred the straightforwardness of dealing with boys. My ESFJ mom didn’t understand this at all and pushed me to be “nicer”. I didn’t seek out female friends until I was well into my 20’s and went into engineering partially to avoid the perils of females in packs.

  • Andi Anderson
    Reply

    Hey!

    ENFJ here. I’ve wondered who it is exactly who finds toddlers and babies so endlessly fascinating. I was as bored as you described too. I think maybe there’s an assumption that Fe would just enjoy meeting the needs of a tiny human ad infinitum, but I felt so isolated and I missed my friends and my former movements through the social world that I didn’t understand how to recapture initially with babies on hand. Eventually, I felt more like myself but realized I’d done that by joining Mom groups and becoming social again with a long social calendar that often involved handing kids off to other people so I could go talk and be a grownup–eventually feeling really guilty about how much time I was managing to get out of just being with my kids. It was really interesting to hear your take on it and what I do and do not identify with. I didn’t love all the preparation and stuff either, and Se tertiary meant I often moved through it all like a hurricane barking orders at everyone else.

    This series in general has been really helpful in showing me how I’ve unintentionally hurt a lot of other thinkers in my life. I DO like debate and deep interesting and weird conversation, and I really do not get offended all that easily–often because I’m being a human shock absorber for every wayward comment in a conversation. But it catches up to me eventually with thinkers. I’ll go in for the challenging debate, but I eventually get upset at all the ways thinkers trespass into what I view as personal or relational territory that should not be touched in any way if we’re going to stay detached. Eventually the resentment builds up and I may snap (Se–oops) suddenly feeling like the thinker was disrespectful of all the work I’m doing to stay in it with them when actually 1. They don’t know and 2. They in no way know they are treading in areas I believe everyone should see as off-limits. In other cases I may just walk away or let it be known in subtle ways that I’m hurt, but I think that is just as if not more bewildering and hurtful. It’s really easy as a sensitive feeler to believe that thinkers have cornered the market on causing pain, when it’s not even close to true.

    I’ve been really hard on my ENTP brother over the years, especially as kids. I never understood the bewildered look on his face when I got so hurt and angry. I just thought he was picking on me. My INTP husband has had to show me too that when I think I’m being entirely intellectual, I often put emotional and relational spin on everything and sometimes have a really hard time staying honest to cold hard truth. (Ok, not sometimes, all the time). And it’s frustrating because I’m so good at getting people to believe I’ve “won” or be on my side when I’m really disrespecting the Ti of it all by playing a little fast and loose with facts. I’ve learned to slow down and take the NTs in my life much more seriously and read them more kindly. My ability to really distill and clean slice information is so awkward and painful that having the help really makes me such a better person when I let them help. I’ve found too that when I finally humble myself to that work and admit my weakness, NTs are much more likely to receive my help in terms of Fe insights too which leads to me finally feeling appreciated and seen.

    We need each other. Thanks for the insights and thoughts.

  • Mere
    Reply

    I recommended offering a course for NT men or ST men taught by NT women. About learning feeling orientation. We are at an advantage. Or maybe tag team woth a NF guy for protection (maybe the NT woman should write it for an NF to facilitate?) I’m tired of being alone in the reality of knowing my feeling weakness. Men need this education a lot more. But thank you for the two episodes of validation!!!! A lot of them I wanted to share with NT men I know because I know they feel the same disorientation at times because feelings are present in a lot of situations.

  • Shiru
    Reply

    What a great podcast. I quite enjoyed listening to the common but differentiated challenges (NTJ – NTP) and look forward to reading the comments on this podcast. I have had quite an interesting journey in how I perceive thinker women.

    In a bid to understand why I feel like I’m always on the periphery of social interactions, I picked up Goddesses in everywoman again (Thanks Antonia and Joel) and was quite touched by the chapters about the virgin archetypes. ‘she may lead a one-sided and often lonely life …’ the author writes. As a woman who identifies with the Hestia archetype (and an NF), I battle with feeling as though I could never possibly share myself in a form which can be participated in. This has caused me a lot of pain because I crave mutuality. But even then, I so intuitively understand what is acceptable and polite, I understand outcomes and how to influence them. So I can only imagine how much more challenging it is to for an NT woman to navigate spaces which aren’t wholly accepting of them.

    I made this comment to specifically address thinker envy and how it may influence the way in which feeler women perceive thinker women. I use Ti as my tertiary function and while I certainly have an appreciation for it, I lack sophistication in it. This has often left me embarrassed when it comes to debate and quick thinking, when I take too long to formulate an opinion or can’t express myself very concisely. And in walks this NT woman (figuratively) who is just so competent and reflects to me what I lack and I attribute arrogance to her. Meanwhile, I’m the one with the insecurity. And to quote Ann Ulanov, ‘envy is afterall admiration gone sour’. Truth is, I admire NT women.

    I love that when we are able to situate ourselves in the pool of personality styles we can identify our trouble areas and strengths and develop a growth strategy unique to us. This is evidenced by how Antonia and Melissa have been able to problem solve with regard to the social challenges they face. Learning and appreciating how other people show up is also instrumental in personal development. I now have a list of Athena Wisdom on my noticeboard for inspiration as I work on my dissertation. I think of it as NTJ style wisdom. I was only able to want to emulate it once I accepted the challenges and deficiencies I face in the realm of strategy and stopped projecting ill motives onto others because of what I felt I lacked.

    • Antonia Dodge
      Reply

      I often think that the challenge between Thinker and Feeler women is envy going both directions.

      This was a really kind comment. Thank you for sharing it.

      -A-

    • Jennifer
      Reply

      Hi Shiru, as another INFJ (I assume that’s your type), I related a lot to what you wrote, especially having envy towards thinker women through having Ti-envy. For myself personally, I think a lot of this had to do with being pushed too much into fields where NT’s tend to excel instead of having my own NF strengths recognized throughout a lot of my life.

      I hope whatever our types, we can all learn to appreciate our own strengths and use them to benefit others instead of harming them because we secretly resent them for being good at what we’re not.

  • Britt
    Reply

    This was such an insightful episode! I have been listening to your podcast for a while, and I always consider leaving a comment but finally feel compelled to after listening to Melissa and Antonia’s dialogue today. While I identify as an INFJ, I’ve tested as INTJ as well and definitely related to a lot of the social experiences Melissa shared, particularly that I don’t think others are ever interested in the topics I find fascinating (which is partially why I love listening to this podcast- it’s so great to hear from others with similar interests and mental wirings). I really appreciated the candid discussion toward the end of the podcast about motherhood as an NT woman. As the daughter of a fiercely ISFJ woman, I have always had a certain perception of what a “good” mom looks like, which was reinforced by my time in elementary education so the many, many I/ESFJs. I stayed home with my child her first two years, and I have always felt so guilty for how boring I find toddler play. I recently went back to work in data analytics where I get to use my mind and problem solve during the day and now have much more patience to play in the evening. It has been an evolving journey to realize that my parenting style is my own and to accept that while I may not love the mundane parts of motherhood, that doesn’t lessen my love for my child. Thank you so much for reinforcing this message!

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