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In this episode, Joel and Antonia talk about how our culture tends to resist maps and models of human development due to the threats it poses to our ideals.

In this podcast you’ll find:

  • Ability to handle feedback can be a personal growth challenge.
  • We objectify people in media.
  • The Graves Model (aka Spiral Dynamics) is a vertical model.
  • It feels like a hierarchy which is icky to some people.
  • Is it a bad thing to look at hierarchical models?
  • Graves Model podcast
  • Vertical and Horizontal Models
  • These are just lenses to see reality through.
  • The horizontal model assumes everyone is at the same level of development (MBTI).
  • A Vertical Model assumes everyone is at different levels of achievement (Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs).
  • Clare Graves discovered the Graves Model.
  • Then there was an attempt to remove the hierarchical nature of it.
  • The numbered levels were changed to colors to make it feel less hierarchical, and it came to be known as Spiral Dynamics.
  • It is a hierarchical system, however.
  • A horrible human being can be at any level just like an amazing human being can be at any level.
  • Character isn’t related to Graves Level.
  • It is an attempt to see where we were and where we are going.
  • Are hierarchical models good or bad?
  • Enneagram attempts to create distinctions between how people show up within their Enneagram type.
  • Riso & Hudson Enneagram book had 9 point system within each type.
  • At the bottom of this 9 point system is suicide and homicidal tendencies.
  • At the top is transcendence.
  • That version of the system is hierarchical.
  • It is a good gauge for determining where you want to go vs. where you don’t want to be.
  • No one has arrived. There is no end game.
  • These hierarchical models are like a compass.
  • Be at peace with where you’re at and accept there is still a better version of yourself you can manifest.
  • This is the conversation of our time.
  • Lots of social causes today: memes, gender viewpoints, wealth distribution, nationalism, etc.
  • We tend to inject vertical models into horizontal models.
  • Even within Myers-Briggs, we try to create a hierarchical structure.
  • Zero to One Podcast
  • SPOILER ALERT: Star Wars The Last Jedi
  • The Force is available to everyone, which killed the hierarchy of the Jedi.
  • We get a massive pushback whenever we invoke a vertical model.
  • You are ultimately the person who navigates your healing and growth.
  • How do we get us all on a horizontal level, so we all have the same possibilities?
  • Personal empowerment is the birthplace of reform.
  • The more you work on your empowerment, the more the culture sees the need to change.
  • We oversimplify all this stuff which is why we like models because it gives us a simpler way of breaking down the nodes that contribute to the system.
  • As an individual, we are responsible for our personal growth and empowerment.
  • Models remind us that nobody has arrived. We are all on various paths.
  • Time and the universe aren’t going to stop to accommodate us.
  • Sometimes we have to start all over, and we don’t get rewarded for some of our hard work.
  • The universe rewards determination, persistence, and personal responsibility.
  • We cannot expect culture to do our work for us.
  • If you don’t want to be perpetually victimized you have to figure out how not to be a victim.
  • Our egos don’t do us any favors.
  • “All models are wrong, but some are useful.”
  • When looking at maps and models, the question isn’t ‘Is this wrong.’ It is ‘Is this useful.
  • Don’t abandon a model just because your ego gets triggered and you don’t like how it feels.
  • If that happens, that makes it a very useful model.
  • It is shining a bright light in a dark place.
  • “I don’t like this because I don’t like where I’m at.”
  • It is your job to figure out where you want to be.
  • A lot of systems have been democratized and there is an expectation that everything should be democratized.
  • Not everything can be democratized.
  • One of the best ways to understand our You Are Here dot as humanity is to look at long enough timelines.
  • Forgetting history is easy.
  • The world didn’t start when you were born.
  • We are on an exponential growth curve, but we haven’t arrived.
  • Human evolution is incredibly slow.
  • You can tell when someone is doing personal growth willingly and when they are doing it unwillingly.
  • When someone’s life has fallen apart, and they have to do growth work just to survive. They may approach growth kicking and screaming.
  • Versus someone who has taken on the mantle of personal growth and does it willingly. They have a zen-like approach to change.
  • Our collective egos are bucking against where we are really at.
  • We don’t like it when reality gives us harsh reminders of how much work we still have to do.
  • Isn’t it better to have a map even if you don’t like where your You Are Here dot is?
  • The only way to get to where we want to be is to acknowledge where we are at and carve a path to where we want to be.
  • If you have some definite ideas about how you think the world should be, grab a microphone and create a platform.
  • Create content that moves the needle.
  • Stand for something don’t just stand against things.

 In this episode, Joel and Antonia talk about how our culture tends to resist maps and models of human development due to the threats it poses to our ideals. #podcast #personaldevelopment #personalgrowth #gravesmodel #spiraldynamics

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27 comments

  • Michael Beausoleil
    • Michael Beausoleil
    • May 2, 2018 at 4:19 pm

    I haven’t yet listened to this podcast, but Antonia’s comment in the email announcement I just received triggered me enough to come here to post this comment:

    If anything, the work you two do and your stated positions in {model name here} INSPIRE me to work hard on myself so that I, too, may consider myself “leveled-up”. Personally, I think anyone who feels marginalized by your self-assessments probably isn’t being adequately objective and reflective about themselves. Furthermore, what difference does it make where Joel and Antonia feel they reside in {model name here}? What truly matters is where in the {model name here} I currently reside relative to where I desire to be.

    I find value in the Graves Model insomuch as how it can be applied to measure the growth of humanity and oneself, relatively. For example, am I leading my society into the higher levels? Am I trailing? When I perceive someone to be more advanced than I, their teaching is what I seek so that I may leverage their knowledge towards my advancement. By my own graduation, I hope that my living an exemplified life – not my boasting – will lead others to follow. To assess others against any model is futile and in now way serves to advance my personal growth.

    Never have I interpreted either of your statements as being that of a braggart. You two are exceptionally humble given your accomplishments and resounding impact.

    While I applaud you, Antonia, for taking to heart your friend’s apparently genuine critique and committing the time to dissect yourself in that regard, I have come here to submit my vote: Does not feel marginalized by Antonia’s self-assessment of her position in the Graves Model ;)

    This is about as close as I can get to a rant in written form. Thank you both for all that you do!

  • Eric Côté
    • Eric Côté
    • May 2, 2018 at 4:08 pm

    Around 33:00, Antonia, wow, I said out loud ”that’s f* awesome”. That’s so like how I feel. Get everyone to be better versions of themselves, globally. You said it so well. Joel too, dead on too.

    My not humble opinion is that societies need to change, and people are changing – and we see that going on. People need to be free – truly – to be themselves. We need to improve things for everyone, makes me cry as I write this. Both need to happen.

  • Joel Mark Witt
    • Joel Mark Witt
    • May 1, 2018 at 12:21 pm

    Thanks Keith for the feedback. I think critical thought around all the maps and models we talk about is great.

  • Jess Visher
    • Jess Visher
    • May 2, 2018 at 12:56 am

    Interesting podcast! I don’t think heirarchal personality models are a bad thing. After all if someone actually is on the higher side are they supposed to lie about it? I mean you are what you are. But I see that most people have a pride button and a hierarchal personality models presses it.

    From personal experience much of this pride can come from weird issues that you may have had since childhood. My mom got my IQ tested when I was 12 and to her disappointment I didn’t come out as genius. I also didn’t have any other traits about me that made me stick out as “special” and I keenly felt that. I understood quickly that my parents wanted their version of “rare” and it wasn’t me. So thirty years later when I was introduced to MBTI and got ENFJ as my type it brought up an array of mixed emotions and I had no idea where they came from (figured it out months later). My childhood turned a horizontal system like MBTI into a heirarchal one where “rare” was the prize. I very badly wanted to be an INFJ (and I was so close!) for this reason and very badly did not because if I was an INFJ then I would be “better” than everyone around. It was the present I always wanted but in opening it I would be reducing the value of everyone around me. And I saw INFJs as secretly prideful and assumed most of them lied to get there! And if my less-than-ideal childhood (and mine was a ton better than others) did that to a horizontal system, imagine what could mess with the intent of a vertical system!

  • Joel Mark Witt
    • Joel Mark Witt
    • May 1, 2018 at 12:14 pm

    Totally made sense to me Danielle. Thanks for sharing your experience. As an ENFP – Enneagram Social 6 – I can totally relate to a lot of what you are saying.

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