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In this episode, Joel and Antonia talk about how our culture tends to resist maps and models of human development due to the threats it poses to our ideals.
In this podcast you’ll find:
- Ability to handle feedback can be a personal growth challenge.
- We objectify people in media.
- The Graves Model (aka Spiral Dynamics) is a vertical model.
- It feels like a hierarchy which is icky to some people.
- Is it a bad thing to look at hierarchical models?
- Graves Model podcast
- Vertical and Horizontal Models
- These are just lenses to see reality through.
- The horizontal model assumes everyone is at the same level of development (MBTI).
- A Vertical Model assumes everyone is at different levels of achievement (Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs).
- Clare Graves discovered the Graves Model.
- Then there was an attempt to remove the hierarchical nature of it.
- The numbered levels were changed to colors to make it feel less hierarchical, and it came to be known as Spiral Dynamics.
- It is a hierarchical system, however.
- A horrible human being can be at any level just like an amazing human being can be at any level.
- Character isn’t related to Graves Level.
- It is an attempt to see where we were and where we are going.
- Are hierarchical models good or bad?
- Enneagram attempts to create distinctions between how people show up within their Enneagram type.
- Riso & Hudson Enneagram book had 9 point system within each type.
- At the bottom of this 9 point system is suicide and homicidal tendencies.
- At the top is transcendence.
- That version of the system is hierarchical.
- It is a good gauge for determining where you want to go vs. where you don’t want to be.
- No one has arrived. There is no end game.
- These hierarchical models are like a compass.
- Be at peace with where you’re at and accept there is still a better version of yourself you can manifest.
- This is the conversation of our time.
- Lots of social causes today: memes, gender viewpoints, wealth distribution, nationalism, etc.
- We tend to inject vertical models into horizontal models.
- Even within Myers-Briggs, we try to create a hierarchical structure.
- Zero to One Podcast
- SPOILER ALERT: Star Wars The Last Jedi
- The Force is available to everyone, which killed the hierarchy of the Jedi.
- We get a massive pushback whenever we invoke a vertical model.
- You are ultimately the person who navigates your healing and growth.
- How do we get us all on a horizontal level, so we all have the same possibilities?
- Personal empowerment is the birthplace of reform.
- The more you work on your empowerment, the more the culture sees the need to change.
- We oversimplify all this stuff which is why we like models because it gives us a simpler way of breaking down the nodes that contribute to the system.
- As an individual, we are responsible for our personal growth and empowerment.
- Models remind us that nobody has arrived. We are all on various paths.
- Time and the universe aren’t going to stop to accommodate us.
- Sometimes we have to start all over, and we don’t get rewarded for some of our hard work.
- The universe rewards determination, persistence, and personal responsibility.
- We cannot expect culture to do our work for us.
- If you don’t want to be perpetually victimized you have to figure out how not to be a victim.
- Our egos don’t do us any favors.
- “All models are wrong, but some are useful.”
- When looking at maps and models, the question isn’t ‘Is this wrong.’ It is ‘Is this useful.
- Don’t abandon a model just because your ego gets triggered and you don’t like how it feels.
- If that happens, that makes it a very useful model.
- It is shining a bright light in a dark place.
- “I don’t like this because I don’t like where I’m at.”
- It is your job to figure out where you want to be.
- A lot of systems have been democratized and there is an expectation that everything should be democratized.
- Not everything can be democratized.
- One of the best ways to understand our You Are Here dot as humanity is to look at long enough timelines.
- Forgetting history is easy.
- The world didn’t start when you were born.
- We are on an exponential growth curve, but we haven’t arrived.
- Human evolution is incredibly slow.
- You can tell when someone is doing personal growth willingly and when they are doing it unwillingly.
- When someone’s life has fallen apart, and they have to do growth work just to survive. They may approach growth kicking and screaming.
- Versus someone who has taken on the mantle of personal growth and does it willingly. They have a zen-like approach to change.
- Our collective egos are bucking against where we are really at.
- We don’t like it when reality gives us harsh reminders of how much work we still have to do.
- Isn’t it better to have a map even if you don’t like where your You Are Here dot is?
- The only way to get to where we want to be is to acknowledge where we are at and carve a path to where we want to be.
- If you have some definite ideas about how you think the world should be, grab a microphone and create a platform.
- Create content that moves the needle.
- Stand for something don’t just stand against things.
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27 comments
Thank you! You have definitely helped solve this puzzle for me. <3
A
I really enjoyed this podcast! It was so insightful and I honestly didn’t want it to end.
As far as the Grave’s Model, I personally don’t particularly like to use it to classify myself or others. Instead I see it as more of a big picture concept for societies. At least for me, I don’t want to apply a label to myself that might make others think I view them as better or worse than myself. I feel like my intent personally comes off more positive if I’m discussing another model or philosophy like systems thinking, which either goes above people’s heads because I’m awful at explaining things or gives them a really refreshing insight. Still, I think it’s a bit ridiculous to get mad about people using the graves model to apply to themselves and their own personal growth. To each their own. I suppose that’s because I live my life by the philosophy “If no one is hurt, it’s okay with me.” And I sense that both of you have positive intent, which is always an added bonus when I am formulating a reaction to anything someone says and does.
I do think we can be really resistant to models in general. As people, we don’t like things that paint us in a negative light. I remember when I first started to really figure out my Enneagram of 6, I was sort of resistant to a lot of the more negative aspects of my type that do apply to me. This is apparently common. But for me, I personally felt very adverse. I felt like the description was saying that I’m someone who isn’t independent in a sense and latches onto ideologies and authorities blindly. I consider myself to be a very independent, free spirit who is skeptical of authority and strictly avoids completely adhering to a group’s ideology (particuarily political parties, I call myself an independent on principal)so the description was a bit jarring (and I’m also pretty sure I misinterpreted several parts).
I then realized that I actually do have the insecurities of a 6, and what I didn’t like was that the description was shining light on qualities of myself that mostly showed up when I was younger and very emotionally and mentally unstable. These qualities can still occasionally show up and wreak havoc, so it sort of was a wake-up call that I still had more work to do in those areas.
I also think the anxieties that 6s face manifest for me in a slightly different way than I think descriptions tend to say it does for 6s. I chalk that up to being an ENFP 6w7 sp/so, which I don’t think is the most common variety of 6 out there.
MBTI also has helped me gain greater self awareness as well. A lot of intuitives talk about the N/S distinction being extremely mind opening. To me, that really was only putting a name to something that my Ne had already pattern recognized.
I actually developed Ne to a really impressive extent as a child in hindsight. Obviously, I wasn’t at the level of an adult, but in retrospect I was probably better with it then most kids my age were. I attribute that to my intellectual maturity and basically always being surrounded by adults during my formative years. However, around when I started puberty, I just shut down. I think I was unconsciously trying to repress Ne. So I got stuck in the grips of Si. I was about 13/14 when I first encountered MBTI through a friend and was still in this stage. As many people do, I had my type wrong for years. At first I thought I was an INFJ, then I realized that I’m actually a perceiver who doesn’t act in the stereotypical perceiver fashion at times, mostly due to the influence of my parents. Interestingly, my dad is similar to me in the regard that we don’t come across as what one would technically consider perceivers, and my mom leads with a dominant extroverted judging function. So, I settled on INFP. It seemed to fit and that’s what I usually get on online tests (although I’ve gotten every single NF type, ENTP, ESFP, ISTJ, and probably others so clearly the tests are not accurate).
Years pass and I’m between my senior year of high school and freshman year of college. I start to realize that I’m an extrovert. For some reason, I was hugely resistant to the idea. Now, I’ve read that many Ne-doms tend to see themselves and be significantly less extraverted than other extraverts. Still, I’m not sure why I was adverse to the idea of being an ENFP instead of an INFP, I don’t have any weird hang-ups about other people being extraverted, and I enjoy the presence of ENFPs. But I then realized that I am an extrovert who essentially hid that part of herself for awhile and tried to suppress it because I had been hurt by rejection from my peers and the people above me like teachers and one of my grandmothers. This was a game changer for me since it gave me permission to show up as my authentic self more often, which also helped my Fi become more refined as a viable tool instead of just a set of personal convictions.
So I guess the point is some times we need to hear the truths about ourselves that we’re not yet willing to admit in order to grow. Still, from my own experience, I really get why people can be put off by vertical models because of my personal experiences with what MBTI and Enneagram. Hope that all made sense. I do tend to be a bit self conscious about my tendency to go off on giant Ne rambles.
Also realized that you did make it clear in the podcast info at the top of the page that someone’s character is not related to whatever Graves level they may identify with, and I’m sure you probably mentioned that in the podcast as well. Anyway… happy you made that distinction, I missed that part at first.
First of all, I’d like to say that I really like this podcast and have learned much since discovering it through iTunes a few months ago. It’s been a blast going through and listening to various past episodes, and keeping up with the current. So, Antonia and Joel…thanks for the work you do and being a voice for personal growth to others!
Concerning the Graves Model though, I must respectfully dissent (at least, with the limited knowledge I have so far, because I only recently heard of it) or at least bring up the issues that I have with it, and how it is framed. Like I said, it’s a new idea to me and I’m still in deep thought about it, but I’ll do my best to articulate my thoughts and objections clearly.
First, I do believe that if a model or idea is helping some people to better themselves, then that in itself is a good thing. I also see the Graves Model as a fascinating way to look at how the human race has evolved over time, in a macro sense; but to apply it to the individual level, categorizing people on a vertical scale of growth based on somebody’s very subjective idea of success, maturity, or understanding (perhaps there’s a better word for it, but those are the words that come to mind at the moment). The term ‘worldview’ was used a lot in the description, but one’s worldview doesn’t necessarily change with personal growth, and is also subjective. The defining values, principles or ideals given for each color/level (on an individual/micro scale) are pretty broad, and I would argue that most people have a combination of them anyways. The values and principles I am using are from your site, and this other site as well (see below) and some of them that strike me as being a bit broad are “learning to identify with an institution”, “tolerance”, wanting to be in charge, being responsible, success/creativity/achievement, etc., Which in my opinion seems to reflect personality type and personal values due to nature/nurture, not a vertical level of personal growth.
And I guess the reason I think all this matters, and in understanding why some people might feel offended or belittled (even though that’s clearly not anyone’s intention here) is that it makes it easy for people to elevate themselves to a higher level/color based on how they interpret the broadly based descriptions, and categorize others at a lower level using the same interpretations. And people will be offended if they feel they will be categorized based on their deeply held religious beliefs (who maybe is also a very successful business person, or a creative artist). As there are also very successful people that have terrible character, and vice versa. The Enneagram types and levels of “health” within a type was brought up, and I think that makes much more sense in that it can be just as useful in helping a person understand where they’re at and what they should work on growth-wise, but without the downside of Graves Model. I definitely agree that people are at various stages of personal development and it’s not always equal and fair, and maybe this particular model has helped many people improve themselves – but I do question it’s accuracy, and its worth.
Again, thanks for doing what you do! Hopefully I didn’t misrepresent or misunderstand ~
http://www.artofwellbeing.com/2017/09/05/gravesmodel/
Thanks for the feedback Sean. We agree. It’s all kind of a distraction from the core conversation… which is… how do we grow as people no matter which model/level/zone/etc we identify with.
Thank you for listening and being involved here :-)